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[upbeat music] Welcome to For the Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated.

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I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt. Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspect of running, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy. America leads the world in medicine development. It matters.

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We get new medicines first nearly three years faster. Five million Americans go to work because we make medicines here at home, and not relying on other countries keeps us safe. But China is racing to overtake us.

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Will we let them, or will we choose to stay ahead? When America leads, America cures. Let's tell Washington to keep us in the lead. Learn how at AmericaCures.com. Paid for by PhRMA. Welcome back.

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Today, I have Erin Fredericksen joining. Erin, thanks so much for, uh, for taking the time to chat today. Yeah, thanks for having me. For sure. So first question, uh, it's always a tough one. Who is Erin? Great question.

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Um, every time I listen to this podcast, I'm, like, blown away by the people's answers, and I tried to ask my husband about this yesterday. Like, "What should my answer be?"

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[laughs] And he was joking about how, "Well, your Instagram bio says that [laughs] you're Erin Fredericksen, DO, MPH, Raleigh Distance Project alumni." So I guess that's, like, a good,

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I don't know, big-picture overview of who I am. Um, I just moved to Seattle to start my family medicine residency at the University of Washington, so that's, like, my current identity.

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Um, but I think over the past 20-something years, I've recognized and developed a sense of identity, like, apart from what I do, which I think is- Mm-hmm... probably, like, my most important who am I. Um,

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so I guess one of those things that has kind of made me who I am is that I'm the oldest of four, so I have three younger siblings, and we, like, called ourselves the Clark team [laughs] growing up, and we're definitely, like, very close even though we're kind of spread out in age.

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My youngest sister is 11 years younger than me. Um, but the four of us are definitely pretty, pretty tight and pretty close, and I think being the oldest made me

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kind of cut out as a leader, and I think that's what I've developed myself into, like, professionally and personally, um, both in [laughs] positive and negative ways. So I think, like, who am I?

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I would define myself as a leader. I love that so much, and that's the most thought-out answer to this question that- [laughs]... I've had yet.

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And by the way, for those listening, this question started, um, not as some, some deep, uh, philosophical question that I, you know, wanted to get a long answer from.

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It was actually because I'm lazy, and I don't en- I didn't enjoy the, the recording of an intro, and it took me t- like, take after take after take to get it right.

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And so I was delaying the, the release of podcasts that I wanted to release because I didn't [laughs] want to record the intro.

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So I was like, I, I listened to some other podcasts, and they, they ask their guests, you know, to describe themselves and, and I talked to my dad about this as well, and he gave me some feedback.

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And then it turned into this thing that, like, it's, it's been fun asking people h- sort of, um, w- when they're, when they're not expecting a question like that that you could- [laughs]...

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consider loaded, like, "Who are you?"

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Um, it was funny, I was having a, a chat with, uh, Vanessa Fraser, um, one of the Bowerman athletes, about, about this question after we did our podcast, and she was like, "Oh, it must be fun for you.

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This is a tough one." [laughs] I was like- Yeah... "I actually love, I love this one." So you mentioned you're a leader. Um, you're a leader.

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You helped to start, uh, Raleigh Distance Project, um, out in Raleigh, North Carolina. Um, so I wanna know, I, I love what, what, um, as you would say, y'all have done out there. [laughs] Um,

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so talk to me about, talk to me about how that got started. Yeah. Gosh. And, and first, first what, what is the Raleigh Distance Project for those that, that don't know? Yeah.

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So the Raleigh Distance Project started in 2017. We are a 501[c][3] nonprofit that's dedicated to developing elite distance runners and bringing the Raleigh running community along with us.

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Um, so we have an elite team and a threshold team, and basically the purpose of that squad [laughs] um, is to really help people who

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have a ton of potential train in a team environment and give them all the resources they might need to succeed. Um, and so that started a little over three years ago with a core group of five or six of us.

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Um, and so kind of just the way that it panned out, um, Andy Cozzarelli, uh, Rita Beard, and myself were, like, the core group of founding officers.

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Um, and so basically what we did in 2017 was, like, write bylaws, incorporate ourselves as a 501[c][3], um, make a mission and vision and goals and a business plan, and, like, really just build something from the ground up, which we had no idea what we were doing.

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[laughs] Um, but it's really grown and developed into something that's, I think, just a, a great model for a lot of, like, up-and-coming distance running teams, um, which we did not intend to do.

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[laughs] Um, but we've had a lot of people reach out saying like, "Hey, we wanna start a team. How do we do this?" And being able to say, like, "This is what we did. This is what we learned.

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Do these things this way, but definitely don't do this [laughs] um, based on our experiences," that's been really fun to do, fun to see. What are some of the, what are some of the definitely don't do this moves?Gosh.

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[laughs] Um, one of the things actually that we have learned more and more is it's so important to align with brands that share the same value, um- Mm-hmm... like, share the same values as the people on the team.

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And we've definitely done that with the brands that we're working with now. But I think in the beginning, we were kind of reaching for sponsors and people to kind of support the team and get it off the ground.

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Um, so one of the things I would say definitely don't do is work with a brand without signing a contract. [laughs] Um, 'cause we had some, like,

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miscommunications and, um, yeah, just like unmet expectations because we didn't have things in writing. So that's, like, my main [laughs]... My attorney co-officer would be so proud of me for saying that.

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[laughs] You need to have a contract. [laughs] And what were some of the, what were some of the big wins early on that, that you experienced with it?

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I think one of our biggest wins was having Wazzou believe in us at the beginning, like, before any of us did anything big.

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Um, we signed with Wazzou in May of 2018, which was less than a year after we started, and Andy and I had both been part of the Wazzou community, um, previously, but the rest of the team was kind of, like, on the fringes.

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And we basically told them, like, "We have huge goals, and we don't have anything [laughs] in, like, anything to prove that we can actually reach these goals.

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But we're gonna work really hard, and we're really dedicated to the community." So I think having, especially the support of the Volley, um, when we signed with Wazzou was so important for us.

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I think that was kind of like the big push. Like, people believed in us, so we were gonna make big things happen.

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So for, for those out there who are potentially at the higher end of amateur or, um, sub-elite and might be thinking about something similar, what, what guidance do you have for, for someone who would look to, um, start something similar?

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Totally. Um, I think especially for the people who are on, like, the faster end of amateur, for me, realizing, like... I, I mean, I came in as a three-plus-hour marathoner, and just by

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training with people who were faster than me and better than me, I improved to a sub-three, like, 30-minute PR in the marathon, [laughs] um- [laughs]... just over the course of a year and a half.

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And I think the biggest thing is training in a team environment and having people who can hold you accountable and push you.

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Um, and so that kind of brings me to the other side of that, is when you're on the faster end of amateur and you don't think that you can get, like, a sponsorship on your own, I think the collective power of team

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really, like, elevated the group, um, and allowed us to kind of reach up.

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Even though, like, many of us were not fast enough in theory to, like, land a big sponsorship, the collective power of team and the way that we wanted to bring the community along with us made us even more valuable to potential sponsors.

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Yeah, and I think from a, from a growth standpoint, even as an individual, that,

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that can't be understated enough, the power of team and the power of, like, training with people that are faster than you, sometimes marginally, sometimes significantly. Um, I have a couple of friends in Boston who...

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So I... There's a, there's a group where, you know, it's normal to be an Olympic trials qualifier, and, and [laughs] I've started running with them a little bit.

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And so, you know, the women are 2:40s, and the men are 2:10s. So the women are, you know, 10 to 20-plus minutes faster than me in the marathon.

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And, and when you, when you time it right, that's a good running partner to have. And, and I think it helps a lot with motivation.

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It helps a lot with, um, with maybe hitting harder workouts or, or, um, days that are meant to be faster versus, you know, you shouldn't be running easy with somebody who can run a marathon 30 minutes faster than you.

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But, um, yeah, I mean, like, for long runs that are meant to be fast, you know, pick somebody whose, whose, you know, pace is maybe 15 seconds faster than yours.

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Um, and, and you just do that enough times and, and it becomes your normal, and you grow and you adapt just like, uh, you know, even, maybe even faster. Totally. And I think the other cool part about being

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one of the, like, beneficiaries of being part of the team is everyone has such different strengths.

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Like, my training partner when I was in the throes of marathon training was so good at long tempos, and those are- Mm-hmm... the hardest things for me.

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But I could always, like, crush track workouts just because those are what I was comfortable with, and I knew that I could hit fast intervals if I had recovery.

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And so the two of us together just, like, knocked it out of the park when we trained together because I would lead on Wednesdays on our track workouts- [laughs]... and she would lead on Saturdays during our long runs.

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And just knowing- Yeah, you merge those together, it's a pretty stout runner. Exactly. Yeah. [laughs] But, I mean, I was injured for almost all of 2019.

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Um, and being able to see my teammates work together was just super inspiring.

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And seeing, like, one of our newest athletes, Nikki Long, who ran at BU in undergrad and then moved back to Fort Collins and then started her PhD in Raleigh in, uh, forensic anthropology.

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She started training with Sammy George, who's a 4:34 miler, and she went back to BU this spring, or I guess this winter, um, and ran, like, a four-second mile PR.

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[laughs] And so just seeing, like, after three months of training with Sammy, she just, like-...

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crushed it, and I think that's, I don't know, that's just the power of team in my mind, being able to see, like, people progress and move forward.

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Yeah, and I, I think we've seen it time and time again, um, even in race settings, like if you work with somebody else, you're both capable of, of more than what you could do on your own. Totally. Yeah.

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So one of the things you mentioned is, um, that you moved from the East Coast to the West Coast- Yeah... and you chose to do it during a global pandemic. [laughs] Yeah. What was, what was that like?

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Gosh, such an adventure. Um- [laughs] I don't know if chose is, like, the best word because it's kind of a necessity.

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Um, so I just graduated from medical school, and the way that that whole, like, brand of nonsense works is in March of [laughs] the year that you graduate- [laughs] Agreed... you figure out [laughs] Yeah. It's crazy.

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Just [laughs] So you, like, figure out where you're, where you match after you've interviewed a bunch of places during the fall.

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And so on the Monday of match week, you figure out if you matched or not, and then that Friday they tell you where you're going.

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And a lot of people think, like, "Oh, you get, like, a list of choices that you can pick from," and no, it just like, it's an algorithm that spits out where you're going. And so- Mm-hmm...

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most people get, like, one of their top three choices, and you, like, rank them all based on where you would want to be, but the programs also rank you.

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And so it's kind of this, like, mystery that everyone continues to buy into because we have no idea- [laughs]... if there's any better way to do it. Right.

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But yeah, so I actually was, like, super stoked to match at the University of Washington. Um, and yeah, so I moved in the middle of a pandemic because I start family medicine residency, um, at, in the middle of June.

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So basically, like, yeah, I'm moving for work. Um, and we drove across the country 3,000 miles in the middle of a pandemic.

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[laughs] And yeah, it was super interesting to see, like, the way that different states have different things set up, um, and, like, what's open where, and who wears masks and who doesn't.

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[laughs] And so yeah, it was just a really interesting social experiment to see the country, basically.

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So you wrote a blog for Wizelle about this, um, but for those that are obviously listening, uh, right now, what were some of the, what were some of the highlights or, or surprises that you saw, um, on your way?

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Great question. Um, gosh, it was funny to see, like, the different types of vehicles that people, like, tended towards in different parts of the country.

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So I think w- when we were driving through Tennessee and Nash- like, through Nashville specifically, there were so many Jeeps.

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[laughs] And then as we got into Colorado and Wyoming, there were lots of trucks, and then we got into Salt Lake City and there were tons of Subarus, and then we kind of continued up through Oregon and there were also lots of Subarus.

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[laughs] And now we're in Seattle- [laughs]... and everyone has, like, a, a roof rack, like Yakima storage box thing on the top of their cars.

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And so we feel at home because before we moved, we found one for free on Nextdoor that was, like, smashed in because someone forgot what the clearance was and drove it into a parking structure.

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[laughs] So [laughs] yeah, we, like, picked it up- It just doesn't fit as much, right? Yeah.

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No, actually we, like, picked it up and popped out the top and, like, duct taped it and it was a game changer, like totally saved half of our clothes from getting donated back in Raleigh. [laughs] Oh, that's awesome.

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I'm surprised you didn't see more, uh, Subarus in Colorado, though. We saw a fair number of Subarus, but I think we were just mostly,

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I don't know, just impressed by the number of trucks because as I mentioned, my teammate Nikki is from Fort Collins and she has a truck, which we, like, don't, didn't see a lot of in Raleigh.

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And so then when we were in Colorado, we were like, "Oh, hey, like, everyone here looks like Nikki." [laughs] Um, one of the times when I was in, uh, Boulder, I actually followed the wrong blue Subaru to, um...

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I was trying to follow somebody to, to breakfast after going, uh, on a run, [laughs] and I followed the wrong car to a different place. [laughs] That's hilarious. It was the same car, but the wrong, the wrong place.

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Um, so, so you're, you're starting your, your family, um, residency. Mm-hmm. What's, what is... First, why, why medicine? Ooh, great question. This is, like,

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the question I had to answer all of med school and residency application seasons. [laughs] Um, so I guess really it comes down to mentorship, um, particularly with family medicine.

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So I grew up in San Francisco, and then my family moved to Sonoma County, just north of San Francisco, right when I started high school.

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And in high school I was an athlete and ended up going to the doctor for, like, the most random things.

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Um, I played lacrosse and kept getting, like, silly injuries, like check, getting checked on my hands from the lacrosse stick, and then, like, having all of these problems.

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So I saw my family doctor a lot [laughs] and ended up creating this awesome relationship with him, and he's, like, the quintessential small town family doctor who takes care of everyone, delivers babies, and then still, like, takes care of, like does prenatal care for patients who he delivered when they were born.

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And so it's just, like, that whole life cycle, um, getting to create relationships with people.

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And so, um, he is, like, the reason that I wanted to go to medical school and the reason specifically that I want to be a family doctor.

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Um, and so then through, like, through medical school I-Figured out like, okay, I wanna do family medicine.

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I thought I specifically only wanted to do sports medicine, because like I mentioned, was an athlete growing up, [laughs] continue to be an athlete, am super passionate about making sure that everyone has opportunities to exercise and be healthy.

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Um, but then through a couple of projects I did during medical school, I realized that especially sports medicine, it's like a specialty of privilege in some senses, and I wanted to be able to stay broad and help people in whatever situation they're in, especially if they don't have the advantage of, as, like the same advantages as many people do to exercise.

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So family medicine is like the most broad specialty, and there are so many ways that you can serve the community through that, and so that's why I chose family medicine. Cool.

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What do you think it's gonna be like starting in- [laughs]... this new climate? Great question. Um, I know part of our orientation is like online via Zoom, so that'll be interesting.

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Um, and a lot of our clinic visits might be using telemedicine except for like inpatient, or like really, like necessarily in-person things, like procedures.

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Um, but my first inpatient rotation is in the medical ICU at the University of Washington in July, so I think that'll be a huge learning experience, um, because most of the experts are recognizing that COVID is not going away anytime soon.

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And so I think, um, it'll be like an interesting transition because for all of like March and April and most of May, I've been like, "I really wanna help."

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[laughs] Like I, I wish I was one of the medical students who could graduate early and like go serve in the hospital. But now it's kind of like, oh gosh, this is real, [laughs] and I'm like a little intimidated by it.

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Um, just being an intern in the middle of a pandemic, it'll be a huge, huge learning experience. So I wanna know, it's like it's such a fascinating, um,

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like place to be mentally that y- that you know what's going on and you're like, "Sign me up. Send me in." Mm-hmm. W- what, what is that like? What's, what's your...

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I mean, it, it's, it seems like silly to compare it to, and silly maybe is a bad way to describe it. It seems strange to compare it to like going to war, but we've seen it described that way. Totally. Um, and I...

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Is that, is that sort of what you're feeling and you're like, "This is, you know, I, I'm ready. This is what I've trained for." What's, what's the- Yeah... where are you with that? That's a great question.

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Um, there's actually a podcast that I love called The Nocturnists that just did a, like a special episode on exactly what you're asking about.

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Um, and I just listened to it on part of the drive, and my partner was like, "Wow," like just thinking of the way that especially like trainees in medicine are getting thrown into it in some places, but,

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but not, um, maybe not adequately prepared or not knowing what they're signing up for. And so I guess my head space, I

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have had a leadership position with the American Academy of Family Physicians for the last couple years, and we participated in this

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like call es- essentially to write a policy for the AAFP on medical learners in a pandemic, so that's like medical students and residents. Um, and like the things that should be- Sorry to interrupt. What- Yeah...

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what's the AAFP? The American Academy of Family Physicians. Got it. Yeah. Sorry. Um,

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so yeah, we helped write this policy that says basically like students should not be like required to volunteer, but they can if they can be helpful and if they're adequately protected.

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And then residents, um, especially ones with like, um, like preexisting medical conditions that could make being infected with COVID, um, like extra dangerous.

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Um, they basically like no resident should be forced to, um, I guess like be redeployed is the way that we have heard it, as like serving in the ICU or taking care of COVID patients.

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Um, so you shouldn't be forced, but if you want to sign up, you should be adequately protected. Um, and so I guess the way that I see it is like professionally and personally.

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Like professionally, I totally want everyone to be like protected in the right place, but then personally, like I think the wa- the tendencies for people who enter medicine are like the helpers, [laughs] um, and the people who are like jumping at the occasion to like

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get in there and get their hands dirty and make change and help people get better.

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And so I think that's kind of where I am at personally, like recognizing that I'm here [laughs] kind of sitting around and doing nothing, like trying to be as helpful as possible in the small things that I'm doing, but recognizing like I do have skills and knowledge that can be applied

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and I want to use them. That's awesome. It's such a like a s- it takes a special person to, to be in that place, and it's, it's incredible to see the, um, selflessness and,

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um, care for others that is being displayed at this time when there's so much shit going on and- [laughs]... um, we need, we need the, the good vibes to outweigh, um, the bad, the bad stuff. Totally.

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Before I got on, before I got on to chat with you, I saw a tweet from, um, a-There's a, there's a show that, I think it's John Krasinski, he puts on- Mm-hmm... called Some Good News. Yeah.

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And CBS just a- basically acquired that, um, that show, and they said, "Why are, why does it have to be that news is so bad all the time?"

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[laughs] "We're, we're excited to present the, the first all good news, um, show."

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And it's, it's like we need, we need these, these good stories and these, these discussions with people who are doing good in our community so that, um, all the negativity can, you know, go to the wayside. Totally.

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I have been joking with friends about how I, like, kind of sandwich my news.

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So, like, I listen to The Daily a lot for news and COVID-related things and the economy, but then I also listen to, like, On Being with Krista Tippett, and I listen to For the Long Run, [laughs] and I listen to The Nocturnists, and just, like,

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recognizing that my brain needs both the negative and the positive, and probably needs a lot more of the positive. [laughs] Um, and just, like, being very, uh, intentional with the things that I consume and listen to.

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Totally. I've heard great things about that For the Long Run podcast. I might have to check it out. Oh yeah, you should. It's pretty cool. [laughs] So, so switching gears a little bit, uh, back over to running. Yeah.

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[laughs] Uh, why did you go for your f- why did you go for your f- and we've gone 25 minutes, barely talking about running. I love it. Um, why did you go for your first run? Or do you remember your first run? Ooh. Yeah.

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Um, so like I mentioned, I grew up in San Francisco, and I think it was, like, fifth or sixth grade, um, when I would've gone for my first, like, run that was different than, like, a little soccer team game or whatever.

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Um, I, like, started to run for the cross country team at my elementary school.

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Um, and so I, like, went to Catholic school in San Francisco, and I remember we were, like, still wearing our little Catholic school uniforms, like [laughs] white blouses, little red tie, plaid skirt, um, white knee-high socks, white shoes.

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[laughs] And I remember, like, running a couple of laps around the long block, um, like, around the gym a- around the gym and the playground at my elementary school. Um, so I think that was probably my first run.

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And there was, like, a hill at the end, and I was like, "I'm never gonna be able to make it up this hill." [laughs] And I remember the,

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I guess, like, the cross country meet, there was only one of them that we were training for, and that meet was in Golden Gate Park, like near the polo fields, um, which I think is where the, like, USATF club cross country, [laughs]

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um, races are, which is kind of funny to think about. But the race was, like, a mile, and I remember, like, thinking about running a mile and being like, "Okay, I don't know if I'll ever...

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Like, I, I don't know if I can do this." [laughs] And I think I ran it in, like, eight minutes or something.

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[laughs] And then realizing that the eighth graders had to run two miles, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I will never be able to do that." [laughs] I was, like, dreading being in eighth grade. [laughs] Yeah.

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I- It's funny how it, it works like that. [laughs] I, I remember we used to do the mile in middle school and high school, and I, like, pretend puked one time so I could stop- [laughs]... at the halfway point.

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[laughs] Yeah. I remember thinking about being so nervous about eighth grade when I was training for,

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like, my third marathon, and being like, "Wow, I can't believe that I was, like, so afraid of this, and now I'm about to run 26.2 miles." Like, just funny, that perspective.

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Yeah, it's, it's cool how, how the perspective changes and how what's normal, um, changes, and I think that's one of my favorite things about running, that, you know, what used to be, what used to be, like, hard is now normal.

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And what used to be, um, you know, you th- what you would think as impossible is now your stretch goal, and, uh, that's- Mm-hmm... it's just cool how, how that works. Totally. Yeah. My 5K PR in high school

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is, like, slower than what my marathon 5K splits have been. [laughs] That's awesome. Yeah. So what are the, what are the big goals that you have, um, or, or how are you handling- Yeah... running in 2020?

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[laughs] Great question. Um, so in 2020 we have the pandemic and a lack of real races.

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Um, and I also, like I mentioned, was injured for most of 2019, um, and so I'm really just building back.

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And then I am also starting residency, which is, like, notorious for a lack of time for anything else besides [laughs] residency. Um- Mm-hmm...

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and so I really think, like, being injured for most of last year has helped me with the perspective of, like, really just enjoying running for the things that it can give me and the things that I can give it.

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Um, and so especially moving to a new place, I'm excited to eventually figure out the running community here, um, and plug in in whatever ways that I can. Um,

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and then also just really commit to injury-free running and making sure that I'm doing all of the little things to make sure that I can stay injury-free. Um,

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so those are, like, the little goals that kind of will build, hopefully, into big goals of, who really knows?

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My teammates will probably get mad at me if I don't mention this, because it's been something that I've talked about for years, [laughs] like, with a little bit of progress, b- really not much.

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Um, I started this, like-As totally as a joke in probably, like, the beginning of 2018, that I really wanted to try to be a steeplechaser. And- Mm-hmm... like I hadn't... I've never, I've never been a steepler.

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Like, I've, m- in high school I didn't even know that was an option. [laughs] And I played lacrosse in college, and then really got into, like, just running for staying in shape.

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And so I, like, made the jump from running for fun to running marathons, but never really explored anything in between. Um, and I feel like the steeple is just the coolest thing ever. [laughs] And

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so that's, like, something that I really want to first learn how to do, and [laughs] second, get good at. Um, and just because of the type of athlete that I am,

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I feel like I could be good at it, but I have literally nothing to base that on. So big, scary goals would be to qualify for trials in the steeple for 2021, and that is, like, a very big stretch goal.

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[laughs] Um, but my coach is David Roche, and he is, like, the most enthusiastic person on the planet, and he, like, if you believe in yourself, he believes in you.

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And so he is, like, all on board with that, which I think is hilarious, because I have nothing that- [laughs]... says that I could be good at this. [laughs] Um, but he's like, "Yeah, let's do it. Let's go for it."

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So one, be a steepler. Two, try to get my marathon time to where I think, like, my potential is.

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So I ran 254 in November of 2018, and definitely think that I'm in the 240 range whenever I can, like, feel healthy enough to run a marathon. Um, and otherwise, yeah, just enjoy running and get fast.

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That's awesome. How long you been working with David? Um, since July of 2019. So I had, like,

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basically, without going into all of the details, just had some, like, five stress reactions [laughs] in my tibias, um, in like January and February of 2019 that didn't fully heal.

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Um, and so I, like, reached out to David and Megan, because I had been following Megan since the beginning of medical school, basically, 'cause I was like, "Wow- Mm-hmm... someone can do medical school- [laughs]...

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and, like, run fast at the same time? What?"

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[laughs] And then I, like, started reading her research, and yeah, I just knew like, okay, if I want to, like, get serious about this and figure out, like, why these bone stress injuries aren't healing, like, I really need someone who knows what they're doing.

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And so I, like, reached out and was like, "Help. SOS." [laughs] Like, I'm trying to pile all 17 things on top of each other.

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Like, I was planning a wedding and trying to p- like, perform well in a sub internship, um, which is, like, basically a month-long interview for a residency program, um, and try to qualify for trials at Chicago,

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and my shins were still hurting, and I was like, "David, help." And he was like, "Okay." [laughs] I remember he said, like, "I think you have 12 irons burning in hot fires right now, and you just need to take a Tylenol."

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[laughs] I was like, "Thank you. This is what I needed." [laughs] Y- yeah, it's, it's awesome how they balance, uh... Like, stress is stress, and that's the, the SWAP way. It's, uh, it's- Mm-hmm...

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life, it's training, it's all of that, and it all builds up. Um, selfishly, I wanna know what, what did you do to, um, to heal from the, the bone stress injuries? I also had, uh- Yeah...

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two stress reactions in my tibias in January. Gosh, yeah.

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They're so frustrating, and I think the biggest thing for me was, like, realizing what was stressing them, and what I was continuing to do that I didn't realize was probably not what I should've been doing.

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So I was, like, cross-training my butt off, um, and not doing, like, zero-impact cross-training, and I was still lifting weights. And so I think just the combination of all of those things.

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Oh, and, like, a lot of single leg things and yoga. Um, and so I think just the combination of not giving the tissues enough time to heal was what prolonged everything.

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Um, and the other thing was just really focusing on nutrition at the time. I, like, probably wasn't having enough protein, maybe not even enough calories, just 'cause I was like, "Oh, I'm not running." Like, things...

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My metabolism was different, so I was like, "Okay," like, "This is fine, whatever." But yeah, just really focusing on the little things, and not being afraid to, like, completely shut it down for a little while.

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And I think working with David gave me the, I guess the belief that, like, shutting it down was gonna be okay, and that the world wouldn't end if I didn't exercise for two weeks.

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So yeah, that was, like, an very important perspective. Yeah. I had the same thing. Um, I didn't run for six weeks, uh, starting in, at the end of January, and I had the sa- it was the same experience.

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Like, two years ago, that would've been like, "That's it. The world's ending," and- Mm-hmm... and in, in my experience here in 2020, like, it was not, it wasn't the worst thing that could've happened.

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It wasn't the best thing that could've happened. Yeah. But, um, I was able to manage it, and, and David helped sort of shift the focus to other things, and helped me- Mm-hmm...

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realize, like, yeah, I had a great year last year. That's not all, you know, for naught. I just need to recover from this- Mm-hmm... and take some time off, and, you know, you'll get, you'll get back to it.

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Um, so one of- Mm-hmm... the things I'm learning about the tibia injury in particular with shin injuries is it's, um... And I spoke with a couple of experts on this, uh, both Adam Tenforde at, um, Spaulding- Mm-hmm...

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uh, who's one of the top, uh, bone doctors in the country, and my own chiropractor, Brian Kent.

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Um, and they-They confirmed or reaffirmed that, that those types of bone injuries are generally not nutrition-related, they're generally not under-fueling, but it's more so, um, biomechanical. Mm-hmm.

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And, and it's the way that you're loading the- Totally... bone. Um, and so- Yeah... it's like for me, it's like, "Okay, now I gotta figure out [laughs] how to run differently." Totally. So did you- Yeah...

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did you experience something similar? Yes, 1,000%. Um, yeah, I have a...

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The physical therapist that the Raleigh Distance Project works with, um, has a 3D gait analysis that, like, you put the little markers on, and they send it to Qualisys, and they do all of these really, like, awesome advanced analyses.

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And so I have one of those from, like, 2017 or 2018, and then I compared it to just a video gait analysis of what I had been doing right before I got injured, which I had changed my form just a tiny bit, 'cause I, like I mentioned, had run that 2:54, and I was like, "I swear I can run, like, a 2:40-something marathon.

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Like, I think I can qualify for trials if I just become more efficient." And I tried to, like, rush that process, and completely- Mm...

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changed the way that I w- like, my foot strike, 'cause I was like, "Oh, I can be more efficient this way." But then it was, like, three weeks, and I was injured.

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[laughs] So yeah, when I started to come back, especially after having not run for so long, I was like, "I feel like an elephant or a giraffe or a baby deer." [laughs] Like, what are my legs doing? Yeah.

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Um, and so I worked with, um, a physical therapist who had, like, real-time feedback on, um, like, on a treadmill in his office. Um, and so I got to, like, change

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my gait based on, like, the cues I was giving myself or the cues that he was giving me, and seeing that in real time. And then he would, like, draw the force angles, and draw the vectors, and all of that.

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And, like, I studied exercise science and, um, biomechanics in college, and so I was like, "Oh," like, "I know what this is." [laughs] Like, "I know what's going on."

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Like, let's use this physics to figure out, like, how to do things differently. And I, like, just seeing, like, videos that my teammates had taken of me running, like, 5:40 pace recently, like, just am so...

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Like, I'm so thankful that I took the time to figure out that form, and recognize, like, okay, this is how I do this fast, and this is how I do this on my easy days.

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And, like, this is how I can continue to have good form and not let it break down, like, when I'm working really hard, or when I'm tired, or whatever. So yeah, definitely biomechanics has been a game-changer.

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I need to work on that. That's my- [laughs]... that's my Achilles heel right now. Um, pun somewhat intended. Yeah. Um, so now that, um...

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So you mentioned consistency, you mentioned, uh, focus on, you know, doing the little things, and, um, sort of compounding on all that to, to crack 2:50. Um- Mm-hmm... what is...

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Are, are you, are you signing up for virtual races? Or how are you, how are you staying motivated and, and engaged, um, when there are no races? Good question.

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Um, I think just because I can run right now, I am, like, essentially just motivated because I'm able to. Um- Mm-hmm... and I really like to push myself, and I like workouts and working hard.

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So it's, I think I've been motivated to do that, and it's been really fun.

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Um, I did sign up for a virtual race, um, the one, um, sponsored by the Golden Coast Track Club, with Nikki Hiltz, the Trevor Project one at the end of June. Um, and that's, like, a virtual 5K. Um, and so I

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have been thinking about doing that as, like, pre-residency, like, w- a time trial. Like, where, where's my fitness, and where can I go from here? Um, so that's my, like, I guess the closest thing on the horizon.

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Um, I had been signed up for Boston, and it's doubtful that that would hap- that will happen in September, I think, at this point.

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So, um, really essentially, like, I'm running because I love to run, and because I can do it right now, and that brings me joy. Um,

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my [laughs] Raleigh Distance Project teammates have, like, taken the Des Linden phrase of, like, training for life. [laughs] Um, and so I think that has really been, like, the motivating factor.

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Like, I know that I'm a better human when I'm able to run or when I, like, get outside and move my body. Um, and so that's, like, that's my motivation, I would say. Awesome.

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Um, yeah, I- I think it's a good time to explore the why, and explore, like, why you enjoy running, and it's a good time for [laughs] a podcast that's designed to explore the why. So I'm- Mm-hmm...

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I'm having fun with, with, with athletes who are, um, doing that sort of self-discovery, uh, at, you know, at the same time. Mm-hmm, totally. Yeah. The why is kind of funny to think about, um, because when I think of

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my why, like personally, I think that answer for me is different than what others would say my why is. Just, like, their perspectives on things.

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And so the reason I bring that up is because if my sister, my six years younger than me sister, ever listens to this, she's gonna be like, "You didn't tell him that the reason you started running in medical school was 'cause you wanted to be faster than me."

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[laughs] Um, so when I- [laughs]...

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[laughs] That's, like, my why at pro- during my second year of medical school, when my sister was, like, a junior in high school, was like, "Wow, Noelle is running, like, a 5:30 mile.And I've never been able to do that.

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Can I do that? Like, just the competitive edge of being like, "My younger sister is faster than me. Like, can I beat her?" [laughs] And that why, like, during that time I was like, "Oh, like,

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if she can do that, I can do that." And like, that was kind of the spark that helped me figure out like, "Oh, I probably have more potential here."

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And yeah, so just thinking of the why, like she would totally say my why was like to try to be faster than her. [laughs] That's good too. [laughs] Yeah.

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So, so what, um, what are you looking forward to most, um, later this year? Good question. I think the thing I'm most looking forward to is

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finding a community of people, particularly if any person in that community of people would like to run with me at 5:00 AM or earlier [laughs] before, um, like shifts during residency start.

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Um, that was like the best thing about the Relay Distance project was we all kind of had like running as a side hustle, and we were like committed to our careers and were able to fit running in creatively.

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And just being around people like that was super inspiring. So I would love to find a community like that here. Cool. Um, yeah, I think the Seattle community is an interesting one, particularly with the, the rich, um,

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history of some of the, the racing and, and the number of pro and elite athletes that are, that are out in that area. Yeah, totally. Um, question about failure.

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When, when is a time that you experienced failure, and, and what, what did you learn from it? Good question. Um, the first thing that comes to mind was basically the

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l- last three years, um, I really wanted to qualify for the Olympic trials in the marathon and run Atlanta in February. Um, and I guess that was a failure in a sense that I, my heart was like committed to that goal, um,

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but it ended up like not panning out. And I think the way that I responded, especially like being in Atlanta and watching some of my teammates run the marathon, I,

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I mean, I remember like being filled with emotion, being like, "Wow, I really, like really wished I was out there. I really wished I was wearing that kit, and I wish that I like had the opportunity to prove myself."

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But at the same time, like recognizing the accomplishments of 500 women [laughs] being able to be there was- Yeah... so inspiring.

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So I think, like I think the biggest thing was recognizing like running is bigger than me. Um, and I definitely like learned that from failure. I don't think I would've had that perspective had I like

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felt like a hotshot [laughs] in Atlanta, like, "Oh yeah, I qualified for trials," 'cause that's a huge accomplishment.

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But I think being humbled by going for it and failing was an important life lesson that I needed to learn. Yeah, I love that. Um, I've had the same experience basically every time that I've watched the Boston Marathon.

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Um- Mm-hmm... I've made it abundantly clear that my goal has been to BQ and actually run it. Um, [laughs] and so it took me four years to b- it took me four years to BQ.

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I failed three times, and even ran a 40 something in the process of trying to break 3. And, um, and then I, and then I BQ'd and, [laughs] and it still wasn't fast enough.

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[laughs] And so it l- it's like, it's like, "Cool, you ran 2:59:40, but that's still too slow." Wow. "Uh, sorry. Enjoy, enjoy the sidelines again." Yeah. Um, and so...

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And, but, but it's so cool because yeah, then you get to cheer on other people and, and you hear from people who, um, who remember you screaming at them, you know- Mm-hmm... on the sidelines.

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And, and that's j- like the Boston Marathon is what it is, or the Olympic trials is what it is because of the accomplishment it takes to get there, but also because of the environment.

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Everybody who's watching knows how difficult it is to get there. Um, and I think that that's what makes these big, scary goals big, scary goals. Totally. Yeah.

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I, I think the best thing about the marathon, specifically Boston, or like really anything that's hard to do, is remembering that, I think Peter Bromka says this, but like the marathon doesn't owe you anything.

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And- Yeah... recognizing that, like, I mean, I really wanted to break three hours at Boston in 2018, and I ended up running 3:01 and a half or something. Like very, very close, but like technically failed.

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[laughs] And recognizing like- Right... Boston doesn't owe you good weather. [laughs] Like it doesn't owe you a fast time. Yeah. Like no matter how much time and effort you put into training, like

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it doesn't owe you anything. But that's, I think, what makes it beautiful, because you're just doing it because you love it, not because you're expecting something great. Yeah.

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Peter, Peter Bromka is the most referenced, uh, person on this podcast, and he says that- [laughs]... he says that a lot. And, and Dorothy Beal says that a lot too. And, um- Mm-hmm...

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she's run, I don't know, f- um, 50 marathons. And- Yeah... and it's, it's the perfect epitome of, you know, you've run 50 marathons. She's run a 3:11.

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Um-But that doesn't mean that the next time she goes out there, she's gonna run a 3:11. Right. I had a conversation with Scott Fauble, uh, yesterday about this exact topic.

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He ran 2:09 at Boston, and he went into the trials sort of, um, a- and I asked him, "What, what is, what was your takeaway from, from the trials?" Uh, because a lot of people were expecting him to make the team.

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And he said, he said, "Basically, I got, I got humbled because- Mm-hmm... um, he was expecting the same thing. He was like, "Yeah, you know, I'm, I've beaten a lot of these athletes before.

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I've got a faster PR than a lot of these athletes." And you still have to execute, and you still have to, you know, have a good day.

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You still have to have everything, you know, fall in line with what you're, what you want to happen. And even, even if you have the perfect build-up, the weather could be shit. Mm-hmm.

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Or you could miss a turn, or you could, you know, your gel could fall out of your pocket, and then you bonk because, you know, you don't have enough fuel. Um, so I, I think that's the, the beauty of it, that

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it, it never goes as you expect. And even when it goes so, like, just as close as possible, there's still something that makes it imperfect, and I think that that's what...

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I- I- If it was perfect every time you went out there, what's the point? Yeah. What would be the point? Totally. It'd be boring. Yeah.

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I remember in college, um, I played lacrosse, like I mentioned, and one of the years, we m- made a shirt that said, "If it were easy, everyone would be doing it." And that was- Yeah...

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like, the shirt we wore to nationals. And I said that during a workout a couple weeks ago to a, a few of my teammates, and I just, I feel like that is... I don't know. It's like, it's fun because it's hard.

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Yeah, totally. Um, I think that that's, that's, that's a perfect summary. [laughs] Um, what do you wish, what do you wish you knew when you started running that you know now? Um,

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I wish that I knew patience, and I wish that I knew that the only way I could learn patience was by experiencing it, and experiencing the need to be patient.

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Because I had lots of people telling me to be patient [laughs] and that the results would come. Um, but I think having to learn it was necessary. So I would tell myself to be patient, but also,

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it's not fun to be patient. [laughs] It's the kinda thing that like, yeah, somebody could tell you it, like you said, but you just have to learn it- Yeah... firsthand.

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I was joking with one of my old, now old teammates, um, Kimberly Maloney, who is, like, super wise beyond her years.

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Um, and we were talking about, like, I'm writing a blog to summarize the last three years of my life on the Relay Distance Project, and I was like, "I cannot put this into words." [laughs] So I was looking for cop-outs.

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[laughs] And I was like, "Well, I could write a blog that says, like, one thing that I've learned from every one of my teammates." And

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I was joking with Kim, like, "The thing that I'm gonna write is that I should listen to you. Like, I learned that I should listen to you," [laughs] 'cause she's so wise. Cool.

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Um, what is, uh, what is one thing that, that you wish people knew about you? Mm. Good question.

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I guess one thing that I wish people knew about me is that... Gosh, this is a really hard question. Um- [laughs] We start with a hard one, end with a hard one. [laughs] Yeah. Hmm.

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I guess, so one of the things that I have tried to change and

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really haven't succeeded, and maybe that's probably a good thing, um, one of the things that I wish people knew about me was that when I get serious about things, um,

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I guess, like, when I advocate for things, I tend to, like, look angry, but I think that is just me trying to show, like, I care about this and I really want this to change.

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We were, on our drive, we were listening to either a podcast or a, an audiobook that was talking about how anger is a response to perceived injustice, and I think that is, like,

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a lot of what I experience looking at the world. And so recognizing, like, I, I want this to change and I really care about this, and that's, like, the way that I am. I don't know.

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I get angry about things that I wish were different and would love the opportunity to, like, fix them all. That makes sense. Um, where can people find you if they'd like to follow along?

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Um, so this is actually, like, exciting but also sad. I used to be, like, the one, the sole person behind the Relay Distance project, um, Instagram and Twitter. So follow them, first of all.

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It's not me anymore, but it's still gonna be awesome. [laughs] Um- [laughs] And then me personally, um, on Instagram and Twitter, I'm eclark3, because I have not figured out what my new Instagram handle should be.

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I got married in August of 2019, and still haven't [laughs] changed it. [laughs] Um, but yeah, that's me. Cool. Awesome. Erin, thanks so much for chatting today, and, uh, we'll see you out there. Awesome. Thank you.

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Of course. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end. I hope you join in next week on For the Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails.

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If you've enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too