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[upbeat music] Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated.

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I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt. Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspect of running, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy. This episode is brought to you by UCAN.

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If you know me, you know I'm all about personalization and not having a one-size-fits-all solution.

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That applies to training, nutrition in general, and nutrition for training, and UCAN is another tool in the toolbox I've loved over the years.

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Along with professional athletes like Alexi Pappas and Meb, I've used UCAN for marathons in the past and have recently begun incorporating their SuperStarch into my day-to-day routine and before my long runs for steady energy.

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SuperStarch provides long-lasting energy and helps keep your blood sugar stable with tasty summer flavors like cran-rasp, tropical orange, and more.

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I also love their bars, particularly the chocolate peanut butter flavor, as a late morning or mid-afternoon snack. Take 15% off your order at ucan.co with the code FTLR. Welcome back.

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Today, I have a repeat guest joining me who holds the prestigious title of the most referenced man on- [laughs]... For the Long Run podcast. Peter Bromka, a guest of episode 10, I believe. Awesome.

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Peter, thanks for [laughs] thanks for coming back today. Thanks for having me again. Uh, much different times, um, but I st- again, have a Dunkin' Donuts iced coffee in my hand. [laughs] So life is pretty good.

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Of course you do. Yeah. So the last time we caught up on the podcast, you were, uh, it was in Boston. We were less than six feet apart, and- [laughs]...

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you were getting ready to r- you were getting ready to run on Marathon Monday. Yeah. Today is, um, July 30th, and times are a little different now. Um- Oh, totally different... h- how, how are you doing? I'm doing fine.

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I mean, I think you... What I see when I go online is, like, people who are existing either, like, in the larger existential world that we're in, or like the actual world context or their own little context.

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Um, so I mean, I think, like anyone, we struggle with things right now. Um, but then I try to pop out of that and realize that I'm super fortunate and life is still really good for me.

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Um, but I think, you know, um, you still get dragged into feeling how you're feeling about, like, just the world.

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I mean, I was texting my good friend Patrick, who's on the Bierman Elite that I'm on, and just saying that, you know, we come to the East Coast every summer, 'cause my wife's from here, and spend time with family.

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And then I said, "It feels really weird not to be c- returning to a very big block of training on the horizon." 'Cause I've done that now, I realized, for six years.

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[laughs] Um, it's like you go east, you run some miles on your own, and then you get ready to come back and just grind through the fall.

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Um, and that's been for CIM, it's been for New York, um, it's been for all these, like, amazing events. And so

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we're trying to think about, like, a way to, uh, recreate some of that, but it's certainly a whole different world. Definitely. There were [laughs] a half dozen things there that I'd love to dig in on.

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Um, but let's start with, with what you shared first. Um, we're in weird times.

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Uh, it's okay to feel how we feel, and, and we're all riding this rollercoaster, but you do have to appreciate what you have, and, and with that in context, it's still okay to, um... Like, I've, I've struggled.

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And the goal of this podcast today is, is more of a sort of state of affairs. Where, where are we? Um, w- we did- Yeah...

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Peter and I did a very, very, um, deep dive into his own why and exploring, like, what, why he runs and, and what motivates him about it and, and particularly a lot about Boston in particular.

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So if that's, if that's what you're looking for today, um, episode 10 will, will give you that. Um, this is gonna be a much more topical- And it's super fun... conversation. But I just have to stop you there.

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That's super fun to dive into, 'cause I've, I think I tweeted this at some point, that I didn't realize until recently that I've been fortunate to be on a few podcasts that as the individual getting interviewed, if it's a long enough, interesting interview like we had, it's super fun.

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It's like a little time capsule that you're able to- Yeah... I'm able to go back and listen to that podca- the conversation we had, and I mean, our conversation was a part of the weekend,

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um, this amazing weekend that's sort of like I, in my memory, have a photo album of from beginning to end. Um, and honestly, I was thinking [laughs] about, I'm gonna take you on a tangent, like, Lyndsay- [laughs]...

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Krause was saying how, you know, she's been posting about this wedding she had been planning and then how it has been postponed, and she had been really looking forward to it as this, like,

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w- w- day that she could look forward to as an amazing day she would remember forever. And

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I, having been married, like, definitely know that feeling, but I also said, like, "I do that with marathons, like, once or twice a year." Um, and

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I think of our conversation a few days before Boston as just like a bell curve, like it's the lead up to this crescendo. Um, and so I remember it fondly as part of this whole weekend that I hope to never forget.

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And, um, it's fun to even go back to listen to part of that conversation where we get, dive into, like, how I got to running and how I came back to marathoning, um, 'cause it was all part of this moment that I was hoping would go well, and that did go well, and so it's super fun to revisit.

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Yeah. And, and I appreciate you sharing that. And the other piece that's interesting is the, the why changes too, and the reason you're doing it changes. Mm.

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I definitely wanna get into, like, what [laughs] why are you doing it now? Yeah.

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We were talking before we started recording, like, um, y- we're grinding here through, you know, 73-degree dew points on the East Coast, and it's just brutal.And eventually, you know, you'll come out the other side with some, some fitness and- Yeah...

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hopefully some Dunkin' Donuts iced coffee. [laughs] But, um, [chuckles] but, but yeah, we, we are in this weird time when, when there is no racing, and we don't know when racing will return as we knew it. Mm-hmm.

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You know, we're seeing these photos and videos of, of races that are happening, seems like only in Utah. Um, but [laughs] they're, they're happening, and it's, it's not what I like about racing.

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It's not, um-- What, what they're doing is they're just setting up a timed course, and that's, you know, you can time trial that. Yeah. It's like- Um, what I love about racing is what you love about racing, I think.

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Yeah. And I mean, I, I've seen-- having seen the photos of you running Boston, I get the sense, um, [laughs]- [laughs]... it's probably, it's probably why we're friends, you know. Like, I've actually had people- Yeah...

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close friends be like, "You might wanna tone down some of the showboating to the crowd," um, 'cause, you know, I definitely [laughs]

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I- [laughs] Uh, and I, I will say, as I've gotten more and more serious about my time at Boston, like really buckled down, I've, like, incorporated more subtle ways of, like, taunting the crowd. I now just, like- Yeah...

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lightly hold my fingers to my ear, and I'm like- You now, now you wink. Yeah, yeah.

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[laughs] Um, rather than, like, I used to-- I mean, I think 10 years ago, I once, like, jumped and, uh, you know, whipped my hand around, and then, like, my calf seized, and I was like, "That was a horrible idea."

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Um, so yeah, like- So, so you and I have the same approach to, to that. Um, there, there are photos of me at, um, uh, jumping up Heartbreak Hill. Oh, cool. And, and, like, some of my, like, favorite photos.

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And then the same thing in, um, Coolidge Corner. I was, you know- Oh... it's like mile 23 and a half. Right. And, and I, I ran that year with a, um, with a charity bib.

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And so I was [chuckles] I was in the, you know, 25,000s, and these people are running four-and-a-half-hour marathons.

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And, and I'm-- or four hour, whatever it is, and I'm, I'm run-- like, blowing their doors off, jumping up and down and smiling. And people are either like, "Holy shit, that's incredible," or like, "Fuck you, dude." Yeah.

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Like, [laughs] "Get out of here with that." Yeah. Come on. Some of us are hurting here, and you're like, "Well-" [laughs] "... we're all getting different experiences from this." Yeah, so it's, uh- Right... I mean,

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exactly. I, uh,

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I've been really trying to go through this tough process of thinking about how my favorite thing, which are major marathons, are sort of like gyms, or like a packed gym at a concert, like, while, you know, screaming, like, while moving.

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Like, it's all of the worst-- Um, all the things I love most about it are the worst things for a COVID era.

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Um, and so yeah, there's people who-- It's been really interesting to see, you know, you talk to people about their why, but just, like, seeing people post about different time trials and virtual races on social media.

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Um, there are different forms of races taking place, or tests, I should say.

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Um, and then they appeal to different types of runners, and they have brought out the best in, you know, different types of people that I'm like, "Wow, I, I certainly couldn't do that, but hats off to you."

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Um, you know, everything from, like, these 5K time trials to people have done marathon time trials, to my friend Jason Iyer ran 200 miles in seven runs over one week. Um, it-- really because, why not? Um- Right...

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and different challenges speak to different people. Unfortunately, for me, uh, being, like, a, a very social person and, um,

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it's only given me more time to realize that, like, yes, it's about the journey, and yes, it's about the, um,

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like, goals, but really it's, if I were to focus it, it's about the experience, um, and setting yourself up to have, like, a crazy exciting experience. And so a lot of that is on hold.

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Um, and that's why I'm- 'Cause that, that piece requires other people, right? For me, traditionally, I would've-- I mean, I would say absolutely. Um, but if I'm staring down a year of,

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you know-- I'm at the point where I'm thinking about signing up for Boston '21, hoping it happens in the fall, I guess. 'Cause I don't, I mean, I don't, we don't need to, like, speculate

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here, but, like, I don't think I'm gonna wanna go to a major marathon next spring. Um, and so- Right... but I have actually turned a corner recently where I'm interested in maybe putting some money down on a bib, um,

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because of, I think, the accountability and the sort of, like, investment it would express.

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I, I hadn't had that interest at all until recently where I realized, like, I kinda wanna put some dates on the calendar, even if they're really far out and even if they would move, I guess.

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Um, whereas before, I was like, "This seems silly. The world's in flux." Um, I've gotten, I guess, used to some of the world being in flux, and I'm like, "I don't know. I might wanna put some stuff on the calendar."

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So I've-- I mean, I'm even thinking about this fall, like, how could I... You know, pressure creates, you know, constraints create pressure create opportunity.

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And so I'm like, "Okay, if I'm gonna wanna achieve anything this fall, how do I put some dates on the calendar, even if it's, like, three of my teammates and I are gonna rip a 10K on the track?" Um,

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because minus that, you're gonna be like, "Well, I mean, I could... But, but, but if I, I gotta move that workout, and maybe we do the 10K next week."

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And, and I just don't think-- I still might get kind of fit, but I don't think I would create nearly the same level of just, um, marching towards a goal that I've been lucky to be a part of. Is that hard for you?

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It's har- so, super hard. Um, I mean-I've just

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had the time over the last couple months to think back on the last six years and how I've just layered, you know, marathon cycle on top of marathon cycle, and how that's brought me all the way to the close to, you know, an OTQ and all these amazing e- experiences.

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Um, and so that's been hard, like, for a lot of people. And now what I will say is I have this, like, Jaws style, like, dun, dun, dun, um, which is that I [chuckles] turned 39 last week.

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Um, and so there's a lot of unknowns about, you know, the relative performance ability of aging runners. Um, but I wouldn't say like, "Well, you know, in five years I'll definitely be better."

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[chuckles] It's just hard to say that. Um, part of my imagination still, like, dreams it to be possible, but, um, objective markers wouldn't say it's likely. And so, um,

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I had-- If you'd talked to me in January, I'd been like, "Screw masters running. I have zero interest in masters running.

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Like, I'll get there eventually, but, um, I just wanna keep ripping, and there's no reason to look-- like, pick my head up. Let's just keep our head down and keep going."

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Um, now I get a-- we all have too much time on our hands, even at-- though we're, like, very busy with things and, uh, to think about, you know, what will the next stuff be, and, um, I'm trying to grapple with that.

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Um, what can the next couple years be? And honestly, how do I make sure I'm... I really think about it like, how do I do the things I need to do to not

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give up any of the fitness that I've earned very-- over a lot of years? Do you, do you think that this break is good for you? Um, no, but I think it could be not

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horrible for me. I don't think I ne- [chuckles] I don't think I needed it. Um, I think some- Yeah... people could really benefit from it.

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Um, I think there's any number of ways that, like, runners could gain from this period.

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Um, and also, you know, like we talk about w- again, you see a lot of people posting gratitude for just being able to run because it keeps their life in balance, and I think that's absolutely true and absolutely important.

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Um, you know, in the scheme-- Again, it's like if you pop out, in the scheme of things, um, you know, athletes missing seasons is not gonna be, like, the biggest thing. Um- I think I- But, um- Oh, there you are.

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Oh, sorry. I think I lost you. No, you're good. Yeah. Um,

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you know, it's sort of like in an athletic context, you can be super frustrated, and then you do occasionally have to return to the life contexts where these are endeavors that, um, only sort of matter.

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Um, and so that's where you kinda seesaw back and forth between... I mean, I, I see it in my own Instagram posts that I try to be honest about, and I post, like...

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and I'll look and be, you know, expressing gratitude towards, uh, you know, safety and, um, family.

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And then I also have posted over the last couple y- months about how pissed I was 'cause, like, dreams are deferred and you're like, "What, what is this? I don't know what this is."

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And it's-- it can feel very, like, ungrateful, but it's also real, and so it's sometimes just processing that.

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And honestly, a lot of times I just post those things because I imagine other people are going through it too. Um, not to get sort of support because I kind of have that, um,

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amongst, you know, close friends and people I can text and talk to, but, um, to say, like, "If you're feeling frustrated like me, um, you're not alone, um, and this is real," even though,

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um, even though, like, staying healthy, honestly, in the COVID era is the number one priority. For sure. Um, once you talk about disappointment and frustration, I- I'm curious to dial it back or, or, um,

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look back to January and look at Houston. Um, what was-- what were the minutes after that race like for you? Ugh.

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And, and for context, Peter is the, the fastest non, uh, the fastest- Well, me and Jake... uh, runner above two nineteen. Yeah. Right. Yes.

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There, there's another guy, Jake, who finished just ahead of me [chuckles] at, um- [chuckles]...

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Houston, who, uh, there's a horrible video of him sort of going head to hands to realize he probably just missed it, uh, which is- Yeah... pretty heartbreaking. Um, shot by Billy Yang, which is pretty remarkable.

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Um, you know, so I've been trying to process this, and I, I write about my races a lot.

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I think that's-- I write about my running experiences, and I think a lot of that plays into why I'm referenced on this podcast a bit, is because I've- [chuckles]...

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put a lot of those thoughts out there, and they're easier to reference, um, and come back to. And I- uh, to tell you the whole truth,

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the experience right after Houston, um, was this sort of like shock of just, like, not knowing how to process what the world felt like because, um, it meant the dream that I'd been chasing for two years was finally over, um, and out of my grasp.

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And so I have yet to post anything about, um, to write a piece or post a piece about it. And so what I actually did was wrote like a six thousand, almost seven thousand word piece in February, in January and February.

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And then I realized, like, this is not the piece I want to post.

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This is not the piece I want to share with the world because what it is was just a process of working through the emotions and the experiences of the races in which I failed by two seconds to qualify and then I failed by nineteen seconds to qualify, and the incredible outpouring of emotion from, like, around the world to me and, like, so much supportAnd it was way too zoomed in.

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It was way-- I was caught in that, uh, moment, and I wrote about it, and it was okay, it was an okay piece, and I'm happy to send it to someone. Um, but it didn't encapsulate the real experience that I hoped to. Um,

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and so I went skiing with a buddy, you know, before the trials, after Houston, which was, like, a total blessing 'cause I was like, "Oh man, I wouldn't have been able to go skiing [chuckles] with you guys if I had a trials race in 10 days."

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Um- Right... and so we're sitting on the lift, like, having a conversation, and he's like, "You know, you're just-- you're getting out of a r-a relationship." [chuckles] And I, I'm- Yeah... married, and I'm like...

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kinda laugh 'cause I, you know, I- I'm in my late 30s, and I remember- [chuckles]... what that was like to be like, "Oh, yeah", like, um, "You're right. Uh, I was totally in this lifestyle for the last two years."

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And it's weird to say that because as a runner my whole life, and then a runner of seriousness, like, over the last handful, dozens of years, um, you always feel like you're living some part of a dream or you're pursuing some goal.

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But then to, like... From the start of clicking post on the p- essay, "Burn the Boat", about how I was gonna go for it,

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to the finish line in Houston was this bubble that I entered, and then got so used to that it was just, like, the air I breathe.

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And then basically, I can still picture it in my mind, like, walking in the chute, the finish chute, and getting the medal in Houston, and it was like an exit or a re-entry to the real world.

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And the sadness of, like, "I don't wanna be in this world. I wanna be back in that world, but that's not... no longer possible." Um, and so that's what I've been writing about more now. Um,

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and that's what have allowed me to revisit those days and those... what all those moments meant. Um, and, like,

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trying to thread the needle between, or the balance between, like, the micro moments that I think are really meaningful and I never wanna forget, and also, uh, the larger s- larger experience and the larger journey.

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Um, because I actually think the second is more interesting. I posted on Instagram a couple times that I had written a piece called "The Meaning of, uh, Almost",

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which was, like, a working title I had for missing the OTQ for a second and third time, um, by a handful of seconds.

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And then I [chuckles] realized I didn't know how to answer the question, uh, that, that I was proposing. I just thought the title sounded nice, and it s- sounded like what I was writing about.

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And then I realized, like, I don't know the meaning of almost. Like- [chuckles]... [chuckles] What, what do I, what, what a fraud. Like, why would I post a title that doesn't get answered in this piece?

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Because I don't actually think the meaning of coming close was what the experience was about.

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And so I'm writing about what that experience was, 'cause that's what I gained from the two years, and that's what I think is, like, most special to hang on to. So the piece--

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So it's, that's an interesting reflection on it. The piece that I found, um, on my end to be the m- the most rewarding part of your experience. No, I'm joking.

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[chuckles] Um, but, but the piece that I found most interesting from your experience, um, is how unsurprising the outpouring of, of, um,

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appreciation and gratitude and support has been, because you've taken people along for the ride, and that's, that's what matters to me. Mm. That's what matters to the community. Yeah. Um, and, and,

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uh, so this, this piece is, like, one of the... It's one of the reasons that you're referenced a lot on this podcast.

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And it was, it was a specific conversation I had with Aaron Strout and, and a handful of other, um, prior guests, where we were trying to understand men's distance running versus women's distance running.

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And it's fairly, um- Ooh... it's an interesting reflection that Tommy Rivers is the other person that comes to mind- Yeah... when, when we think about going for the OTQ. And

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he's-- His, his community and our community has raised $300,000 for his family, for his recovery, because of him and who he is and what he brings to the community.

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And the outpouring of support that you had is similar in that y- you've lifted so many other people up and allowed so many other people to chase their dreams or, or burn the boat, as you say.

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Um, and so I wanna, I wanna ask the question to you, why do you think you two are the only, or two of, two of the only people that come to mind, two of the only men that come to mind, in that discussion of, you know...

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If you look at women's distance running, it's thriving because everyone's doing something awesome. And- [chuckles]... you know, there are 500 women in the, in the trials field.

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And, um, it's, it's at a place that it's never been before. And your friend is doing it, and your mom is doing it, and your training partner is doing it, and this and that.

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I don't know that we have that in, in men's running. And so I'm curious, like, why is it, why is it just you two? I mean, it's a really good question around... There's the sports side of it.

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There's the stereotypical, like, male/female tendency to share. Um, we know that the men's and women's qualifying times were not relatively equal, um, which has all sorts of thoughts on both sides.

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Um, I tend to think, like, the way the...

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I think it's largely [chuckles] agreed by the people who love the sport and wanna see it grow and love celebrating the sport, that the women's time, um, allowed for a lot more excitement, a lot more celebration. Right.

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Um- Right... that said, I'm really glad that-Well I'm split because I'm really glad that I've run sub 2:20 three times, and I know that I wouldn't have if it had been anything less.

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Um, if it had been 2:21, 2:22, you know, um, you shoot for the standard. So it is interesting. I, I think that what we got to see-- I wish someone could, like, map it out.

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Like, there was these waves of women qualifying for the 2:45 time, um, and then year-- like, three years ago, fall of '17, and then '18 was a big wave, and then '19 was a huge wave, and then even women who went to Houston in 2020, uh, for more.

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Like, there was this, this crazy like, "The door is open. Rush through the door," um. [laughs] You know.

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And so there's women who qualified that I didn't really know of much beforehand, and then in hindsight I've learned like, oh, they chopped the thirteen minutes off their time in Malita.

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[laughs] And you're like, "That's insane." Um, but it... Yeah. It's this idea of like the window to an opportunity on a dream is open, like rush in.

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Um, and there's all sorts of women who just barely, you know, missed out by small amounts, medium amounts, and still are like, "Oh, you know what?

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I chopped twenty-three minutes off my PR, and I still came up six minutes short," and you're like, "Wow."

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I mean, I know something about what that's like, and that means you ran a totally different marathon in a totally different- Right... way, and that's really still awesome, and that's generally the sentiment.

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Um, so I think there's a momentum factor too. Um, once m-more women started qualifying, then more women tried to qualify, um, and then more stories came out about it.

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Um, the men's field time being harsher, um, and keeping the field smaller, you tended to get less, um, crazy dreamers, like, really, uh, qualifying. I wouldn't say you had-- By the end,

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you had... Like, there's been videos of, uh, the pack at CIM this year and just like how many men went out under pace, uh, through the half, through fifteen miles.

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Um, and there's like tons of men from all different parts of the country, and I know this happened at several races. So there was like some of that. Um, a lot of them failed, you know. And

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I'll just say, like, there's a-- The men's time was harsh enough [chuckles] that like most of the people who qualified, like, are damn good runners. You know?

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You like look back through their career and you're like, "Oh, shit." Like, "You ran at that- Yeah... school?" Like, okay.

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You know, not a s- You ran at that division- In that it's like fa- fast enough that it's like, it's not g- it's not a breakthrough race. It's like, this is somewhat calculated, right? Yeah.

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You're like, oh, yeah, you ran at that Division I school, and you were all conference. Like, um, you had to put some things together to figure out the marathon.

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But, like, I mean, I literally turned to some of the guys after

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Houston who had finished within sixty seconds of me ahead, and then, like, understood who they were, and you're like, "Oh, that guy's qualified twice before." You know? Like- [chuckles] Right.

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So he's run like a sixty-four-minute half a couple years ago, and now for re- for whatever reason, he left it to the last minute at Hous- at, in, uh, in this Olympic cycle. But, like, damn- Right...

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if he's not a good runner. So, like, and I don't begrudge. Those guys are awesome. Um, but yeah. There's multiple factors that, you know, even in getting into, like, the whole controversy over the shoes.

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Like, you have this, y- essentially a bunch of women said, like, to other women, "You realize, like, this time is actually achievable even though it seems totally nuts, 2:44.

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And, like, these new shoes have come out," which I think there's a absolutely a physiological component, an ox-oxygen efficiency component.

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But there's also a, like, dreamer component of this is gonna make marathoning different than it's ever been. And so- Right... um, it's al- it allowed men and women to go after a time in a really exciting way.

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Um, and that to me is, like, one of the things that I love about the new shoes, whichever brand.

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But, you know, I'm a VaporFly, uh, original guy, and just, like, this idea of like the marathon doesn't have to smash you in the face and you fail.

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[laughs] That's like sort of how it was thought about forever, and now it's like people are figuring out different elements from the nutrition side, from the footwear side, um, and just be like, "You can tackle this, and don't be afraid to go after some bigger stuff."

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Um, and so yeah, I think then there's been some great storytellers to just, uh, you know, whether, you know, Allie Feller brought on all these women in Atlanta, brought them on a podcast.

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There's been all these interviews with different women who've said like, "Oh, wow, this dream, um, is really a lot of fun, um, and we should go for it." And I will say though even

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there's a side to it where wherever you set that n-number, it-- you tend to congregate. Um, so I've even talked to women who've qualified who are damn good runners. And

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I talked to some women, uh, at the Speed Project, uh, for instance, who in Vegas were like, "That's the hardest thing I've ever done. Like, that was totally insane, and that pushed me in ways I've never been pushed."

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And these are women who had qualified for the trials, but they're really good runners, and the way the women's time was set, they were able to qualify without it being sort of like the utmost limit of their ability. Um,

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and that's totally fine. But, like, then they had-- they went-- they pr- did that, they OTQ'd, and then they, you know, went off in the desert and smashed themselves [chuckles] to figure out, like, okay- [laughs]...

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what does, what does the edge of failure look like? Um, and- Right... I had really cool experiences elsewhere. Uh, so there's like-- I do think there's...

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It all, it's just all to say, like, it's, when these goals, you know, bring people out of the woodwork andHave their stories to tell. Um, so like Tommy is a g- great runner. He's been a really good runner and a really

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champion on, of taking on goals for years. Um, and he... You know, I have a-- How do you say it?

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Like, I have so much admiration for him because he took on a lot of goals, and he did it hi- he does it his own way, like he did his pursuit of that goal his own way. Like,

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I would be training in my lead-up for CIM, and I'd see him running in the Grand Canyon.

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[laughs] And like talking, you know, on Instagram Live or on like a Instagram story about like, "This is the run that fills my soul and that, like, rejuvenates- Right... my ability."

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And, you know, the traditionalist in me and the traditionalist [chuckles] in a lot of people are like, "Uh, it's not really spec- specific enough training for, like, achieving the goals you want."

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But then he was also doing other, um, races. Um, in- I've had the time over the last two weeks to go through, like, the last five years of Tommy's Instagram.

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Um, and what I realized is that, like, he had been o- operating at a level until his recent injury, like he'd been uh, o- hovering at this, like, really nice level of fitness where he could just like...

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He has an amazing like nine-story recap of, um, a rock and roll race, where is it?

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Like Ari- somewhere in Arizona, where he just, like, documents the marathon, that he didn't even, like, enter until a week before, um, because he was in that level of fitness. And then he just like...

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I mean, this is the first-- Actually, it was the first race I heard about him was, um, it's from three years ago, and he, he shows up, he brings his family down, and then in the-- he shows up to the line, and there's all these badass runners, and he gets pissed.

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He's like, "Oh, I'm not gonna win. I-- It's not even worth being here."

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And then he goes out, and he just, like, runs on anger for so long that he basically breaks all the other runners, and they're like, "Screw this guy," like, whatever.

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Um, and he doesn't end up running like that, that fast for whatever reason on that day, but he, it's racing, and he broke the other dudes. [laughs] Um, and he won, and it's just like a cra- I mean, he's

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recounting how he, he was running off of Eminem lyrics and anger, and, like, anger towards his own life events, anger towards all sorts of things, but then, like, finding, you know, appreciation and love by the end.

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Um, it's a journey, and this is the first time I-- that was the first time I learned about him, was someone pointed me to that series of posts. Um,

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and then actually shortly after he went to h- the Boston Marathon and qualified, uh, he hit, he s- ran sub two nineteen, which was totally insane 'cause, correct me if I'm wrong, you ran Boston in twenty seventeen. Yeah.

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He ran [chuckles] two eighteen in seven-- twenty seventeen, which was like, I mean, you were on the- Brutal... It's so brutal. Yeah. It was s- I, I, I was kissing the ground. It was so brutal. Yeah. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.

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I think I've heard about... Yeah. I mean, a lot of people went to the medical tent that day. It was a- [laughs]... particularly like, um, it was so hot. Sneaky hot. Well, no.

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Well, I recall it as like, it was so hot in Hopkinton, um, it was so like direct sunlight, heat radiating, that g- guys are looking at each other- Yeah... like, "Uh, fuck it," right? Like, "This is done."

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Like, "Today is off"- Yeah... right? Like, "No." Right. And everyone's kinda looking at each other like, "Are you sure we gotta do this?" Now, I mean- Yeah. [chuckles]...

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the, you can look it up, and they'll be like, "It was only seventy-four degrees. What were you complaining about?" But you know, it's always that thing of like you're coming out of the winter.

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It's seventy-four degrees in April, yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, yeah. And you're like, your body is totally not used to it. And yeah. Feels like one oh four. [laughs] And so sure enough- [laughs]...

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it like turns out that he was, Tommy was training by run commuting 11 miles each way to his, you know, graduate program and all these crazy things.

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But he just, like, threw himself straight into that and raged on, uh, with the pack and ran two eighteen, and you're just like, like, "What?"

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[laughs] Um, and he's willing to articulate that, and he's willing to throw it out there, and, um, you can see how there is a positive feedback loop in storytelling that people who, I mean, I would include myself in this, like, as I've st- shared more and gotten a positive response, it has enabled me to have the confidence to share even more.

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Um- Yeah. It's, it's wild. It, uh, maybe it's not wild how it works. It's cool how it works. I've-- That's sort of the, the focus I've taken with social media as well. Um, it's not, it's not a highlight reel.

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It's like, this is life. This is the ups, these are the ups, these are the downs, and everything in between. Um, I've taken a lot of inspiration from, from you and from the group out in Flagstaff- Mm...

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um, with the Hoka team out there, with how, uh, Northern Arizona Elite, with, with how they approach social media. And yeah, it is storytelling. And, um,

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it's totally meaningless to post a photo of your, you know, eight to ten-mile run every day unless there's sort of a co- a common thread or, or consistency between it. Sorry, it's not meaningless.

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[laughs] It adds, it adds value. Yeah. It, if it gives you meaning, it's great. It adds value if, if you can come at it in this, um, storytelling approach.

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And then there's the, the s- exactly what you were saying, you know, bring everyone along for the ride and, and allow people to raise their own bar.

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Um, I get a lot of messages, and I'm sure you do as well, from people who appreciate the, um, the storytelling aspect and the like- Sure...

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"Hey, I'm gonna put myself out there and take risks and whatnot, and I'm gonna challenge myself to run sub-four or to run a marathon," or whatever it might be.

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Um, and I think it's so cool that, that we can, we can do that kind of stuff. And I think you can get connected to different stories at different times that make meaning for you.

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I mean, one thing I think isWorth highlighting always is like, it's okay to unfollow people, and it's okay to- Right... walk away from storytellers that are not helping you. Um, I'll give you an example. Right.

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Recently, I was... A friend, she was posting about racial justice stuff a lot, and I just didn't really like her tone about it. She wasn't...

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She's very appropriate, and she's very, like, she's pushing people to do more, but I didn't particularly appreciate her tone, um, for a variety of reasons that just didn't really speak to me.

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Um, and I mentioned it to a friend, and she was like, "Oh, I don't mind her tone at all.

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Um, I think it's, I think it's really good, and I actually think she's more talking to her other female friends who, in this case, she felt like are being sort of lazy in their activism and just, like, she, she's trying to push them to do more."

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And I was like, "Oh, okay. That's totally fine. It doesn't need to be for me, and I can go find people who I'm inspired by."

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Um, and I mean, there's a negative side to that, which is, like, the filter bubble element, but there's also the positive side of it. Like, you don't have to... Things don't ha- are not universally negative or positive.

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Uh, and I think that's what we see with all these different micro communities of running where, you know, um, sometimes people are inspired by people, and sometimes they say, like, "I, I need to unfollow this person."

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I had a friend who was going through a lot of health trouble, and she's like, "Oh, I had to unfollow you. You st- [laughs]... seeing, seeing you post about running just made me so sad." Um, and I was like, "Oh, totally.

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That makes a lot of sense. Thanks for telling me." Um, that's just honest. Yeah.

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I think that's, I, um, I think it's important to remember that if you don't like what you see on your social feeds, you can unfollow people. Um, I, I did that. I went through [laughs] like a pretty

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large unfollowing spree in January or February. Mm. Um, just stuff, like, I didn't wanna see. And, you know, maybe I, maybe I did or didn't know these people, but, um, somehow I began following them and- Yeah...

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yeah, it's, it's your feed. You can mute them. You can unfollow them, whatever.

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Um, I think that if it's impacting your mental health or, you know, your experience with, you know, with a certain platform, you, [laughs] you have every right to do that. Yeah. It, it, I think it's great.

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Um, and particularly as someone who starts to put out more content, I have to remind myself of that [laughs] because, like... So for instance, uh, like, what was it? Two days ago, I posted a

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letter to Tommy, um, who's a friend who, you know, who we're talking about, who's in the hospital, just as, like, a emotional expression of support for him. Um, and I also emailed it to this email list that I started,

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um, a year and a half ago, and I got, like, a very small number, but I got unsubscribes to my [laughs] email list. [laughs] And you're... So, like, the, you know, the

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part of you is, like, all you did, it's, you're not, there's not that many of you that have signed up for this email list, and all I've ever promised is I'll j- I'll email you writings I, I have about running.

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And- [laughs]... you know, e- even if, if it's 1%- It was a great email. [laughs] Yeah. They're like, "Nope, this is not, I'm no longer interested." And I'm like, "This is it." So- [laughs] It's crazy.

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I, of all things, um, that's, that's been something that I've noticed to be kind of sad. Um, as I've posted more about Black Lives Matter and- Oh, yeah... anti-racism and antisemitism, um, people unfollow.

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And it's like, uh, I, I saw, I saw a conversation with Noah Drawdy this morning. Um, s- somebody, a, a guy, um, [laughs] replied to Noah and was like, "Yeah, stay in your lane," basically. Uh, un- hashtag unfollow.

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And it's like, "Really, dude?" Like... [laughs] I think it's, it's, it's weird, but it's great, and it's, uh... Yeah, I definitely saw that. I had a, a string of posts, um, in late May, early June about, um...

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I mean, it's just such... All I'm reminded is that, like, any guys like you and me are, like, a little bit out there. Um, and so, like, the moment- [laughs] I'd say a little bit, yeah. Sorry, no, sorry.

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No, I was gonna say, like, we extend ourselves a little bit into sharing, and we get, like, a little bit of blowback- Uh-oh... a little bit of unfollow.

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[laughs] We're, we're definitely out there, and we're definitely goofballs. Um- Right...

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but, um, I'm always reminded when, uh, women will post online and be like, "Man, you should see the comments I get," or, "You should see the- Yeah... replies I get." And you're like, "Oh yeah, this is totally..."

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I mean, my wife, um, got pushback about something online recently, and I was like, "Oh, that's such a sweet... Like, you're encountering your first little, like, um... Well, that woman doesn't know-" Troll. Yeah.

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K- yeah, like, it, it was a disagreement. I'm like... So then I quickly, uh, Googled... I did a Google search of things people have said about me on Let's Run [laughs] and sent it to her, and she's like- [laughs]...

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"Oh, how dare these people?" Um, and I was like, "No, it's like, it's hilarious. You gotta take it, you know, laugh about it, but you go, um..." It helped put some things in context, and I know that's like,

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it's, there's always order- It's just the tip of the iceberg- Exactly. So-... is what you're saying, for us. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly, and we're coming from it, at it from a place of, um, where we'll be fine, you know?

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Um, I mean, I think as we know, like I just mentioned Let's Run, like anything that is gonna, a guy's gonna experience on there is gonna pale in comparison to some of the things women have experienced on those boards.

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And so, um, you just have to keep things in perspective. Definitely. Thanks again to UCAN for sponsoring this episode.

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I've run two marathons fueled on UCAN and have experimented with it over the years and have found quite a positive impact on some specific health-related metrics that I'll be following again over the coming months.

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Typical sports nutrition products aren't something you would consume throughout the day, but many use UCAN as part of their daily routine for healthy energy, and I can't get enough of the chocolate peanut butter bars.

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SuperStarch is the underlying carbohydrate in UCAN, and it provides long-lasting energy by keeping your blood sugar stable, and it is super easy on the stomach.Available in powder and bars.

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You can save 15% on your order at ucan.co with the code FTLR, like for the long run. Um, one of the things that I've, I've brought up a handful of times on the podcast recently

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is around, um, what we're talking about, like how, how do we do better? And as people,

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you know, who are, who are out there and sharing and open and whatnot, um, what are the things that, that you've been doing that have... You know, you might not have been doing them last year- Mm...

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or, or are there things you're doing differently that are now intentional? Um, let me think. So in, in regards to racial equality and social justice that we were just discussing? Yeah. Or in, in general. Yeah. Yeah.

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I mean, I think the hard thing is I would s- I find it such a weird time, which we know it is. Um, it's sort of like why is this happening now, um, in the era of COVID and the era of quarantine?

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Um, and there's like a really interesting, uh, podcast Code Switch that did a like, why now white people? Um, and- Right. Yeah, yeah. I saw that...

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there's a multitude of reasons, um, including, you know, like we have this time on our hands, and the topic isn't changing. We're not l- able to run back to our lives. So, um, I would say

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what I'm doing is not enough, but what I am trying to do is read up on m- multiple perspectives. Um, I have a strong... Like, a lot of things

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in my mind come back to like multiple things can be true at once, and I just find that to be like constantly this theme that, um,

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is like, yes, but all of this that you guys are debating could really just be summed up with like multiple things can be true at once.

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So, like, reading about the white experience of racism or the, of race in, in America, in our history, I think is incredibly important 'cause as a white person it can be very illuminating.

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Um, and then people have said like, "You should read, you know, Black literature. You should read Black, you know, narratives that both are historical or just personal," and I think that's totally true.

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Um, I don't think one negates the other, and I think they're, it's sort of like for to each their own of where they are in the journey of trying to, um, understand the context better.

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And then there's the constant reminder that, you know, Black Lives Matter is not just some like graduate level education course for white people to be better. Right. It's about, um, improving the lives of Black people.

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Now, I'd say like if you're gonna just start the clock in the spring, which is totally absurd because it should have started much, in much grander ways much sooner. Um, but let's, just to say that, like time is,

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only some time has passed and so it's like how do you support ongoing initiatives right now? Um, and the, and just give yourself time to wake up to like what are the ways that we could be better.

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Um, but I find that really weird because at the same time I'm like mostly sitting at home to avoid getting a pandemic disease, you know?

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So that's like, people are like, "It's not about social media," and I'm like, "Well, let me talk to you about the people I'm not seeing in person, pretty much everyone." Um- Right... so I think that's [laughs] it.

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There's a lot of... You and I are on the social media a lot, and so a lot of these things can sort of explicitly or implicitly like be referencing social. Um, ideally- Right...

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in a non-pandemic world all these conversations are manifesting in like more meaningful ways in person, and that's where I feel like...

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A friend of mine in Portland and I like would watch the daily COVID count in Portland, and I texted him a couple weeks into the protests, 'cause Portland had sustained protests every day, and I said like, "We gotta admit, um, these protests have not led to an outbreak of the virus like we were fearing."

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Um, bec- for any number of reasons, we don't really know yet why. But, um, thank God, because, uh, there've been a lot of protests and people have been out there, and largely they've worn masks and tried to stay safe.

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But, um, I think that is one way to, um, really... I mean, it's so insane to be on the East Coast and to have my hometown in the national news, um, being, uh, highlighted as all these things. Um,

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and so- What's that, what's that like to see? It, it's totally absurdist, basically. Um, it's basically just, it takes... What you're able to see is that it takes everything,

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takes everything as it is and multiplies it by 10, or in yesterday's case, 100, when the President says that like your s- your hometown would've been gone if he hadn't saved it.

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Um, [laughs] and you're just like, well, this is... I mean, it just made me smile 'cause it is horrible but it's totally absurd. It's like the definition of absurd. So in some ways

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i- it's this weird world we live in 'cause I just, like caring for my family and, um... I mean, I feel in some ways maybe ashamed about it, but I was not going to be...

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If I'd been in Portland the last two weeks, I was probably not gonna be at the Justice Center, you know, after 11:00 PM getting tear gassed, um, which is something I'm thinking about, something I need to give some thought to, um,

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because a lot of people were there. And I think overwhelmingly the work, the pressure they're applying is well-meaning. There's, um...

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And so as a result, a lot of what I would've t- taken in regardless would've been through Twitter and, um, would've been through social media.

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Even though I'm like on the East Coast, I, I have friends who are like seeing the same things and they're two miles away from the...

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It's a very small portion of the city that is under this heavy level of conflict, and when they reference the 50 days of protests, it was a proud track record of, you know, protests through the city and there was, um...

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You know, I posted a video of my-son, um, waving and s- like cheering for the protesters 'cause they were going every night through different parts, parts of the city in different directions.

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And then there were protests that were in cars where, you know, people wanted to stay socially distant, but they would just drive through neighborhoods and honk their horns and have signs up.

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And so you're like, there's different ways of participating, um, and in a global pandemic you gotta respect all of variety. Um- How did you explain it to your son, or did, did you explain it? Yeah.

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I mean, he's five, and we've been in- walking into those topics. And, um, you know, it's, it's a great time to be alive. Like, I think we know that these topics weren't really broached when I was a kid. Not really.

276
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Um, not in the right, same way. So it's, um, it's been an interesting time of just wading into, okay, we can talk about this man died, 'cause he knows about death. Um, then, you know, interestingly, he doesn't understand

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the r- you know, justice system yet, so he, he'll routinely ask every couple days like, "Is the man who killed that man still in jail?" And then he'll, uh, wanna know like how long he's gonna be in jail.

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And we're like, "Well, he- he's gonna get a trial," and we'll explain it. Um, and it's just, it's an exploration I think for every family and every parent. Um,

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we, we f- came up against the fact that like he asked how he died, and

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my wife j- just like realized in that moment she didn't really wanna say 'cause it was so uncomfortable, um, it was so dehumanizing, it was so painful.

281
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Um, but then we worked through it and we explained like in, you know, age-appropriate ways like the danger that, um, George Floyd had incurred and then how he died. Um, so I'd just say like

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there's so many layers to it and there's so much work to be done. We have a great book, um, about the lunch counter sit-ins, um, called Someday Is Today. Um, and it [laughs] talks about...

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I have a big, as a storyteller, like a big pet peeve of like, I don't like any of the- You're a storyteller? [laughs] Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

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[laughs] One of my favorites is like g- on Let's Run they'll be like, "Oh, let me hear your 6,000-word story about how you missed." [laughs] And I'm like, you know, funny 'cause it's true. It's funny 'cause it's true.

285
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Um, [laughs] but there are, there are books about social justice that like are not really stories. They're just, they have characters, and they tell facts let's say.

286
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Like, and then there are stories about where there's a narrative arc, there's tension, there's, you know, an outcome.

287
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So there's a great one about the s- lunch counter sit-ins and how, you know, they, they age appropriately describe like the violence they encountered, the harshness and the rudeness like people encountered at the lunch counter sit-ins, um, and then w- and why they were doing it, and then the result of like what came of it.

288
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And it's a great book because there is a narrative arc. There's characters that you're like kind of worried about, and then they come out and there was actually, you know, a great resolution.

289
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And so through books like that you're able to talk about like, um, all the number of ways and layers to the, how inequality has manifested over the years. And so I don't... Yeah,

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it'll be interesting to see how this youngest, youngest generation, how they grow up in different parts of the country and, you know, like how they think about these things having learned about them in more real ways from such a young age.

291
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Got it. Yeah. I've been f- Uh, I haven't asked that question, and I'm fascinated to know how parents are handling these conversations. Um, so thank you. Thank you for that.

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Switching gears a little bit, um, I am reminded of a [laughs] of a Twitter thread- Oh, yeah... from you i- back in May. [laughs] So, uh, I'm gonna turn around one of the questions, uh, that you had proposed.

293
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Uh, so, so basically the point of this is you were on a Running Interviews podcasting rant, and you said, "Podcasters, please make sure to dig in deeper with your guests.

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Find the details that they have experienced as runners that make them unique and interesting. Stop glossing over their journey. If they're pros, they've likely done cool stuff."

295
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This, this Twitter thread actually inspired me to, to change my guest list pretty dramatically. Oh.

296
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Um, I had been pretty reserved and pretty set on only interviewing pros and, and making, um, o- or elites or in some cases sub-elites and, uh, or very high-performing individuals in other careers, Lindsay Crouse-

297
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Mm... um, Jen Miller, people like that, uh, Aaron Strout. Um, and this, this thread led me to think about all the conversations I had with the pros because

298
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like I sat down with Kara Goucher and I was like, "Look, you've done some cool stuff in your career. We're not gonna talk about any of it." Mm.

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And so I realized that, that the conversations I was having with the pros are not interesting because they're pros, but they're interesting because they are successful and, and they've, they've achieved things, and I wanna know what's allowed them to be successful.

300
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But they're just interesting characters, and they're interesting people. And so like that's obviously not reserved to- Yeah... professional athletes.

301
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So I've, [laughs] I've changed up my, my, my, um, guests quite a bit, and I'm trying to make it a little bit more mixed. But at the same time still digging into those, you know, interesting conversations.

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So, um, [laughs] it's funny, you continued, "Far too many interviews with runners sound like, 'I started running young. Turns out I was fast. I turned pro. It's about the process, but really it's about the community.'"

303
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Um- [laughs]... you said many of these things yourself, so [laughs]- Well, because what I- Um- I know it is. But one... I just have to jump in. [laughs] I, I... That morning I had seen a list of...

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I can't even remember where. This person was like, "We're gonna-We're gonna do a series of interviews. Here are the people who are going to be interviewed.

305
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And then the half dozen of na- list of names were all, like, pros who were badasses who had, who'd done things. Um, but what I realized was, like, I didn't-- That, that wasn't enough, right?

306
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And, like, sure, they were probably- Yeah... good interviews, but it's like, it just sort of, you know... Colin Mervar is a great example of, like, someone who's really interesting.

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He could like, you know, you could throw him a ball of clay and he'll make something amazing out of it.

308
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But, like, he was just featured in The New York Times because he's gone through this experience of dealing with the setback of the Olympics and the Olympic trials being postponed. And so there- Right...

309
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there's some- It's the human aspect of it. Yeah. But it's also the events and it's the experience. If you said, like, paren- you know, um,

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the per- Jonathan Lovett, parentheses, some topic, some moment, some journey they...

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I mean, someone s- replied to me about that tweet thread, and they said, like, you know, "Terry Gross tends to bring people on when they've just put something out in the world or just gone through something, or there's like, there's some point of tension, um, that then- Mm-hmm...

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she can dig into, um, and not just, like, promote a movie, but try to say like, 'And we're gonna hear about, you know, the journey of going from mostly playing nice characters to playing a villain.'"

313
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And you're like, "Oh, that's interesting." Because you were like, yeah, I mean, um, [sighs] you know, again, everyone's different. Like, I have, uh, like we were saying about social media, like, I have a particular...

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I know enough about running 'cause I've been around it my whole life that, um, hearing how people got into running, it can be interesting for the backstory. But, like, I want to know, you know, like, what was

315
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Kara's experience like at those moments where she's really struggled, and she's come out with, you know, more and more stories about that.

316
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And then also moments of, like, she's actually m- made moves in races to win global medals. [chuckles] And you're like, "Holy shit." Right.

317
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I mean, maybe it's the same as, you know, when I went from fifth to third in, like, the league meet, but, like, probably not. And that's where I'm like, "Wait a second."

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Um, so even-- So that's where, like, I geek out a little bit and I'm like, "Let's g- let's dig into the details." Um, and not everyone agreed with me, and I thought that was interesting. Yeah.

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Uh, uh, but I, I think that for the purpose of this podcast, like, that, that summarizes the whole experience. Like, I really don't care about successes in the same way that another running podcast might. Yeah. Yeah.

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I care about, like, what happens next, or how did you get there, or what are the takeaways? Like, I tweeted, I tweeted this afternoon about the podcast I did with Alexi Pappas last week- Oh...

321
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and I said, "Some of my fa- my favorite conversations are with pros who have reached a high level and are able to reflect and, and understand what has allowed them to get there."

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And in this episode with Alexi, she essentially outlined her roadmap for growth and success and, and m- failing and making tweaks and changes- Mm-hmm... and getting better.

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And it doesn't matter that she's run a two thirty something marathon or a three thirty something marathon or a five-hour marathon or a 10-hour marathon.

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Everything she said was accessible to anybody, even if you didn't run. And so, like, these-- That's what I'm digging in for, and that's what I'm interested in learning.

325
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So one of the questions that you proposed in that thread is, when did they totally fail and what did they learn from that? Um, so I, I, I'm gonna turn- [laughs]... turn the mic around on you.

326
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Uh, let's, let's hear your answer for that one. I mean, for me, this most recent chapter of my running that I write about a lot, um, has been really decently smooth and decently, um...

327
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It's been all these amazing little presents that I've gotten to unwrap. Um, and as a, when I've-- now [chuckles] that I've had all these damn months to sit and think about it, uh- [laughs]...

328
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what's, what becomes clear is, like, it's all a result of how much I failed in college and how much I... I mean, I literally called my parents, I think, sophomore year, and I was almost in tears, and

329
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I was doing a lot of this-- I was basically doing, like, journaling about, like, why running meant a lot to me. Um, and I'll just say this in, like, a non-judgmental way. It was very, like, um, it was very, like, basic.

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It was very juvenile. And I don't mean... I mean, I w- I went through it, and so I'm criticizing myself, but just to say, like, when I read a lot of people's, like,

331
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what they're learning from running, I'm like, "Oh, I remember that. I just happened to have gone through that, like, many years ago." Um, I was like, you know...

332
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Basically, what I was, was trying to run as much as I dreamed I could. 'Cause in college, like, you literally think, like, every day matters, and if you miss a day...

333
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I know we say, like, "Oh, if you miss a day in the lead up to a, a marathon, it can feel bad if you're new to it." Uh, it's all the same themes. But, like- Right...

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you know, you're on a team, so a coach can only coach a team so much. You know, he tries to do some individual coaching. He, she, like, tries to do the best they can, but, like, they really have to...

335
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Um, so I basically spent multiple years totally inspired and totally burnt out. And I've, I've talked about this a little bit, but, like, I can remember certain moments where, um...

336
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I mean, I had a fifteen hundred indoor race where I just ran so crappy. Like, I didn't, wasn't able to do any of the moves I wanted to do. I just got dropped and, um,

337
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you know, sure enough, I was decently injured or, um... Like, the bullet point list was I, my hips were out of alignment. My, like, stride was off. I ended up going home and, like, uh,

338
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going through the emotional element of, like, journaling how upset I was, calling my parents and being like, "Do I not want it enough?"

339
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Like, I couldn't-I couldn't make the moves when it-- I knew I needed to, and I knew the team needed me, and all this stuff that you go through as a team, on a team. Um, or, you know, not on a team.

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Like, people running road races that have p-poured so much in and they're like, "Why am I doing all this? Why am I taking all this time away from my family, away from my career for this stupid 5K that didn't go well?"

341
01:01:35.526 --> 01:01:45.556
Um, but then I, for some reason, realized like, wait a second, and I did some math and I was like, I think I ran about six percent slower than I would've liked to or would've expected to.

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And I knew my hips were out of alignment. Like, I knew my core and my, um, just my stride was off. And I'm like, oh, it's so off. And that could easily be chalked up to six percent.

343
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Now, I didn't know enough to know how to go fix it, um, and how to like- And the four, the four percents weren't out yet, so you couldn't have made- No. Yeah... that, you know, four percent gap right there [laughs].

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That would've blown people's minds. [laughs] I mean, that's the thing. Like, I mean, if you could have a time machine and go bring the Alpha Fly [laughs] for the start of Boston. Before they were banned on the track.

345
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Exactly. Um- [laughs] But these things, yeah. Like, so my whole-- Basically, when I came back to-- The Boston bombing happened twenty thirteen. I was running,

346
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you know, on a daily basis, but not really many workouts and not r-any races, really. And I said like, "Okay, I wanna run Boston next year. I need a qualifier." And I was in, like, decent fitness.

347
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And so I jumped into it, but I was like, I need to not... And it was actually a great, uh, lesson. I, like, qualified, but my hips got out of alignment. That's just my injury.

348
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Like, everyone-- What's interesting is Bo- uh, Tommy Pucci, uh, talks at length about his training philosophy, and he, he always talks about stress fractures 'cause that's his-- that's what happens to him. Um- Yeah...

349
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that's how his body breaks down. I've never had a stress fracture.

350
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Um, my body breaks down in other ways probably before I even get to the point of stress fractures, and I know you've been just going through a journey like this, um, where...

351
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So anyways, I injured myself in the lead-up to that just a little bit and I was like, "Oh yeah. Like, you're not gonna fucking do this again. This sport is not worth the mental anguish of being injured all the time.

352
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So you're only gonna do it, you're gonna, like, really, really watch that line."

353
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And not watch the line in, like, sort of the way you sorta said you were back in college of like, "Oh, um, you know, I'm gonna be smart this week." And then my buddy would be like, "Hey, wanna run twelve?"

354
01:03:43.856 --> 01:03:50.826
And you know, you had seven- [laughs]... you had seven in your mind and you're like, "Yeah, I'll run twelve." Um- Right. So I just did that for so many years and

355
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went through so much emotional anguish as a result that I've been able to spend the last six years largely staying healthy and, like, really chasing down any little pains and knowing the signs of those pains early.

356
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Um, so I mean, I could dive into any number of races that I just spit-- like, failed sp-spectacularly at.

357
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And, like, to the degree that, like, I, I used to end-- I was lucky enough to go to the Division III cross country meet national championship with my team three years, and I was fairly injured by that meet most years.

358
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Um, like, had different soft tissue injuries. My stride was off. Like, so efficiency is off, so you're just, like, wobbling at the back of the pack, you know?

359
01:04:39.316 --> 01:04:52.956
Um, and those experiences were so, like, frustrating because you're at the national championship, like, you wanna be flying, um, for where the-- and you wanna do everything you can for your team, but realistically, you're just gonna kinda like be

360
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dragging your body around the course. Um, and so I'm been-- I have been--

361
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had this amazing benefit of having like basically two chapters, big chapters to my running career, which was like early where I had a whole bunch of mixed results, and then I've had this like b- able to have a much smoother experience the last six years.

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That's awesome. Um, last question, I think, 'cause I could go for hours with you on this. We should just chat some other time [laughs]. Yeah. [laughs] Definitely.

363
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Um, what are you looking forward to in the remainder of twenty-twenty? What I'm-- Oh, well, it's sort of on the what level are we talking at? But, I mean, I'm hoping... I texted,

364
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again, my friend Patrick and said, "You know, it feels weird to be returning to Portland."

365
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I've been lucky enough to be able to be on the East Coast for a month, um, and not have this big major marathon on the horizon and not have this, you know, timeframe to really build. Uh, but I do feel

366
01:05:57.916 --> 01:06:14.406
emotionally ready to take on, like, focus training and sort of living that lifestyle again. Um, whereas I, I was struggling in, like a lot of people, in March, April, May, June of like, "What's it mean?

367
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Why, why does it matter?" You know?

368
01:06:16.296 --> 01:06:30.116
And if you have any of that, you can't really train at the level that you ideally would want to, uh, be at, um, if you're gonna achieve something and use that fitness to pay off in big experiences. And so,

369
01:06:31.656 --> 01:06:46.976
um, I'm-- what I'm looking forward to in that micro, micro, uh, element of my life, which affects all the other parts of my life, is just, like, having settled into this quarantine life enough to say like, "Okay, um, I need to stop

370
01:06:48.276 --> 01:06:57.096
being so angsty about, like, what's it all mean and where's it all gonna go," and just, uh, settle into that, that process again that I, I've, you know, I've been running, but I've been, like,

371
01:06:58.276 --> 01:07:06.616
gotten far away from where I was over the previous two years that I really enjoyed. Um, and so I'm excited that I'm-- We'll see, you know.

372
01:07:06.996 --> 01:07:11.816
I'll-- I like saying it out loud 'cause it'll be interesting to see in a couple months if I can hold to that.

373
01:07:11.856 --> 01:07:20.252
But, um, it's been an emotional journey like we opened this conversation with around, like, I was really looking forward to runningNew York.

374
01:07:20.302 --> 01:07:26.952
And I didn't have a bib yet, but I was looking at maybe doing a charity bib 'cause I really wanted to run the 50th anniversary in New York, and I was like, "That'll be so exciting.

375
01:07:27.252 --> 01:07:34.872
That'll be like a, you know, rock concert of marathoning." Um, and then you're like, "Oh, that's gonna get canceled." Um, and it all got pushed off.

376
01:07:34.912 --> 01:07:47.532
So I'd been struggling with that, and I feel like I've come to a better terms of, you know, we can settle into that rhythm of training hard, um, and put some goals on the calendar.

377
01:07:47.592 --> 01:08:00.832
So I hope to, like, try to figure out some goals that I- that scare me enough that I can go after them. Um, put them out there and, um, but they're definitely weirder right now. I- I'm trying to figure out, like, what

378
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inspires me, and, um, and really put a, put a line in the sand that, like, will scare me enough to get back to it. If you had to choose today, what would it be?

379
01:08:18.152 --> 01:08:31.712
Um, so what- on my shortlist is I've never broken 15 for the 5K, and I put that, that was my dream of, dreams in college, and I put that to bed, and I sort of put it behind me and said like, um,

380
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"Well, that's never g- didn't happen in college", and- [laughs]... my lifestyle has gotten in the way. I'm like, um...

381
01:08:38.092 --> 01:08:49.332
And then even as I've come back to marathoning, I've been like, "Uh, it's not really, it's not, it's a different time- type of training." Um, but then la- last year on my birthday, I ran 15:08.

382
01:08:49.792 --> 01:09:00.912
Um, and I was like, "Well, that was..." And like, you know, um, the 5K is, like, short enough that you're like within an hour of running one, you're like, "Man, I want another one of those in a couple weeks." Uh- Right.

383
01:09:00.922 --> 01:09:12.232
[laughs] You know, it's like, uh, I kinda fell off the back of that wave and I wanna ride it again. And so, um, that's one. Um, and I think some of the guys on my team are inspired to,

384
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this is all, like, sort of COVID and safety dependent, like, find ways to train for some speed. Um, and we'll see, uh, what I can stand up there. And then this is totally, um, I'm inspired by, like, kind of random stuff.

385
01:09:27.392 --> 01:09:42.292
And so, um, the two others w- were... W- the one I came up with was, like, I'm gonna turn 40 next summer, and I really like running six-minute pace. [laughs] That's a, feels weird to say out loud.

386
01:09:43.112 --> 01:09:51.952
Um, so I'm like- You come pace me for a 10K. [laughs] Could I run 40 miles at six-minute pace? [laughs] Jesus.

387
01:09:52.152 --> 01:10:02.872
[laughs] And it's probably, it's a little bit of a weird one 'cause I really don't even know what I'm saying 'cause I've never run over a 50K, which is 31 miles, and it was much slower than that. It was a trail one.

388
01:10:02.932 --> 01:10:11.642
So, um- [laughs]... I, I hesitate, or I didn't hesitate, I just said it out loud. Um, but it's enough of a, um, you know what I mean? Like,

389
01:10:13.212 --> 01:10:17.312
some- Yeah, it's just like, it's cr- it's crazy enough that you might wanna do it. I wanna do it, yeah.

390
01:10:17.332 --> 01:10:25.992
And so I see people, like, PR-ing in the 10K on the track in, during quarantine, and I'm like, "Let me talk to you about how uninspired I am to go do that right now."

391
01:10:26.102 --> 01:10:36.892
[laughs] Like, that, that literally you could say it to me on a, you know, and you could have a heart rate monitor on, and my heart would not move. I find it- [laughs]... odd and just- Is this guy breathing?

392
01:10:37.012 --> 01:10:43.172
Yeah, like, totally chill. Um, but some people are super fired up about it, and they've gone after it, and they've run some amazing times.

393
01:10:43.872 --> 01:10:54.972
I- As you s- as you say that, I'm, I'm, like, thinking about running a, a mile time trial- Uh-huh... as well, on a track, as well as a road half-marathon. Yeah.

394
01:10:54.992 --> 01:11:03.931
Those are, like, the things that are, like, slowly coming around. My, my half-marathon PR is a 1:27 low- Yeah. [laughs]... and I've run a three-hour marathon. Right, yeah, yeah.

395
01:11:03.972 --> 01:11:09.482
[laughs] And so it's like, uh, that doesn't match up. Yeah. And I mean- Um, so-... you posted stuff that I s- suspected that.

396
01:11:09.572 --> 01:11:27.932
I mean, um, you had posted stuff about, you know, this build-up you're doing with the community, uh, leading into the fall, and I was like, you know, it sounds as though Jonathan has aligned enough of the pieces that he's fired up and is about, like, finding the right course and going after it, and caring the whole time.

397
01:11:28.552 --> 01:11:30.712
Um- Yeah, that's the thing, it's caring the whole time.

398
01:11:30.792 --> 01:11:44.082
So my original only goal for this summer was to run 30 miles on my 30th birthday, uh, with all of my friends on my favorite, um, my fav- like, merging all of my favorite Boston routes together. Mm-hmm.

399
01:11:44.312 --> 01:11:50.662
Basically, taking the, [laughs] taking the train out to, um, Woburn and running from Newton-Wellesley Hospital, you know- Yeah...

400
01:11:50.662 --> 01:12:01.982
the marathon course, and then around the river, and then to Castle Island, and then finishing on the Esplanade at the beer garden there. Now, I have no desire to figure out how to carry that much water- Uh-huh...

401
01:12:01.982 --> 01:12:14.102
or get that much water, and I don't wanna run it without my friends. Yeah. So [laughs] stop doing that. My, uh, uh, my, my coach just loaded in my birthday workout, and- Yeah...

402
01:12:14.102 --> 01:12:26.912
it is a 30-minute warmup, a 30 by one minute on, one minute off- Ooh... and 30-minute [laughs] cool down. Oh. Um, I- That's, that's advisable running. [laughs] I did, um,

403
01:12:27.932 --> 01:12:37.512
I did a 15 by one minute on Wednesday, and I w- I, uh, yesterday, and I was like, by the 14th, I was like, "I don't ever wanna stop. This feels so good."

404
01:12:37.632 --> 01:12:42.022
[laughs] Um, so [laughs] I think he took that to mean give him twice that. Yeah, seriously.

405
01:12:42.092 --> 01:13:00.192
Um, but yeah, like, it, like wh- like what you were saying, like, I haven't, I haven't gotten excited about, um, any sort of time trial or, or virtual racing until, um, until I've been thinking more about, like, okay, I, [laughs] I'm now pretty fit and I'd like to go give that a test.

406
01:13:00.232 --> 01:13:12.132
Yeah. Like, I've been, I've been running 50 miles a week on five mi- five days of running- Right... and biking, like, six to eight hours on top of that. Wow. Yeah. And so I feel pr- I feel pretty good. Yeah.

407
01:13:12.252 --> 01:13:16.192
Um- So you're like, "Yeah, you have components." And so I'd like to give it... Exactly.

408
01:13:16.292 --> 01:13:25.492
So yeah, I think, I think the whole point of this time is, like, do what-Excites you, and if training doesn't excite you, don't train.

409
01:13:25.532 --> 01:13:38.042
But if you are able to find the excitement and fulfillment and joy in the training, you're gonna, you're gonna, [chuckles] you know, be pretty fit in the fall, in the winter, and next spring, and whenever the races do come back.

410
01:13:38.192 --> 01:13:48.052
Yeah. I mean, did you catch-- I think if I caught this right, there was like a low-key post by Des that she took a month off. [chuckles] Yes. Uh, yeah.

411
01:13:48.062 --> 01:13:52.552
[chuckles] And you're like- She said something like, "W- oh, my first, my first run in a month." And you're like, "Wait a second."

412
01:13:52.952 --> 01:13:59.072
Um, she has-- You know, she's on her own journey, sort of like on the back half of her career going like, "What's the best way?"

413
01:13:59.512 --> 01:14:04.292
She re-- I definitely look up to her like a lot of people do, but I look up to her as someone who's like

414
01:14:05.252 --> 01:14:16.772
similar age and is like you're really, really, really gonna have to trust your body's instincts at this, um, moment in your career, because if it's off and you try to push, it's probably not gonna sustain for very long.

415
01:14:16.992 --> 01:14:25.512
Um- Ex-exactly... so yeah, no, I think it's-- The-- Maybe we could, we could write this out, like the elements you need to have lined up.

416
01:14:26.012 --> 01:14:37.712
You need the fitness for sure, and then you need the inspiration, but then you need like the event that like just stokes your imagination, imagination in the right way. Um, yeah. Exactly. Cool.

417
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Where can we follow you if we don't, if we don't follow your six thousand word essays- [laughs]... or your, your lovely Instagram posts? Um, I'm @bromka, um, on Instagram and [chuckles] Twitter and Me-Medium.

418
01:14:50.832 --> 01:14:59.922
Um, and peterbromka.com has all my writing, and you can sign up for a newsletter that I really only email out about m-my running thoughts.

419
01:14:59.922 --> 01:15:11.732
[chuckles] [laughs] And you're welcome to unsubscribe if you decide [chuckles] not to follow anymore. This is, this podcast is brought to you by Peter's newsletter. Please subscribe and then unsubscribe. Yeah.

420
01:15:11.772 --> 01:15:23.592
[laughs] Yeah. Peter, thanks so much as always. Um, we'll have to do this again sometime. Awesome, man. Great to chat. Talk to you soon. Likewise. That's it for today's episode.

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Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end. I hope you join in next week on For The Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails.

422
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If you've enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too