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[upbeat music] Welcome to For the Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated.

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I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt. I've been running for a few years now, and have the privilege of meeting many incredible runners on my travels all across the country.

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This podcast is intended to share those amazing conversations. America leads the world in medicine development. It matters. We get new medicines first nearly three years faster.

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Five million Americans go to work because we make medicines here at home, and not relying on other countries keeps us safe. But China is racing to overtake us. Will we let them, or will we choose to stay ahead?

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When America leads, America cures. Let's tell Washington to keep us in the lead. Learn how at AmericaCures.com. Paid for by PhRMA. And welcome back. I have Vanessa Fraser joining me today.

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Vanessa, thanks so much for joining. Yeah, thank you. I, uh, recently listened to Shalane's, um, podcast with you, so I'm excited to be here. [laughs] For sure. It was, it was awesome.

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Um, I think you commented on her post, or she commented on your post or something, and a friend, uh, a friend tagged the podcast- Mm-hmm...

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and said, "Oh, you should, you should go on," and, um, it was awesome how quickly you jumped on that, and, uh, here we are. Yeah. [laughs] Uh, so first question, uh, who is Vanessa? Um, ooh, let's see.

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[laughs] Um, I am, uh... That is such a hard question. [laughs] I don't even know how you start with that.

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[laughs] It's like I think about all the, the different pieces of me, like, um, the times that I was a student, and the times that I, like, first started running, and how I've become, like,

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a different runner, but in this, in a, a weird way, like, I'm also the same. Um, I think about who I am as, like, a friend and a family member. Um, so gosh, um, I don't really know.

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[laughs] So, um, we got connected 'cause you are an athlete on the Bowerman Track Club. Yeah, yeah. And I, I feel like you're the personification of, like, trust the process. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

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And, um, putting in the work, and just waiting and waiting- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm... and then some- someday, maybe, you know, maybe you'll have your day. Yes.

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So we, [laughs] we were talking before we started recording about, uh, about a race you ran, uh, around the corner from me here in Boston, um, at the BU track a couple weeks ago.

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Um, so before we dive into, um, your evolution as a runner, I wanna, I wanna hear a little bit more about that. Um, what was, what was that race like?

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What was it like, um, you know, with your teammates there, and, and, um, sort of as a culmination of all of this work? Mm-hmm. Oh, it was such a special,

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such a special night, um, for me personally, and for, um, a lot of my teammates. So to be able to all share that special night together, um, was incredible.

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Um, I think- So f- for those that don't know, what, what was that race? Oh, yeah, sorry. Um, so that was the, uh, BU Last Chance indoor meet, um,

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at the end of February, and that was our last indoor track race of our, um, indoor season. And it was gonna be the last race for about a month until we opened up our outdoor season.

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Um, at least that was the plan back then. Um, now we know that that was probably the last race we were gonna have for a little while. But yeah, we went out to Boston end of February in hopes of chasing some fast times.

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So we had a group of women in the 3K going after Shalane's American record in the 3K, and then we had a group of us in the 5K. And, um, [sighs]

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my goal going into the 5K, along with Emily Infeld and Courtney Frerichs, we all really wanted to break 15 minutes, um, which is a huge, huge milestone in, um, in, uh, women's distance running, and our workouts were showing that we thought we could do it.

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Um, we also had Gwen Jorgensen in the race, and she was going after the Olympic standard, and ended up missing that by less than a second. Um,

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but that was a big race for her in her comeback from surgery less than a year ago. But anyway, so it was a good night for everyone.

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Um, they, all three women in the 3K broke Shalane's 3K American record, and then I ended up running 14:48 in the 5K, which way exceeded my expectations. You know, I, um, I wrote...

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Uh, I've been writing, like, little, I guess, inspirational notes on my mirror with a little glass marker.

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And, um, I started doing that in the fall, just, um, to kinda get through the grind of the fall training, and then I kept it up, um, since then.

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And I had written 14:59 really big on my mirror in the weeks leading up to Boston, 'cause that was just, like, the big reach goal in my mind.

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So to, um, you know, reach that goal and more by, like, [laughs] you know, over 10 seconds, um, just kind of blew me away, and it was just one of those special moments and special races where-Um, you just kind of feel invincible and everything comes together.

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That's awesome. Um, w- whose, whose idea was, uh, writing that on the mirror? Oh. Or where did that idea come from? Oh.

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Well, actually, I think I was, um, first inspired by, uh, Shelby was talking about how she wrote on her mirror, um, in 2016 leading up to the Olympic trials. I think she wrote- Mm-hmm... I will be an Olympian.

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And I've heard that story a couple of times from her, and, um, I was like, I really like that idea of... I don't, I don't just have goals up there.

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I just kind of have like little, um, catchphrases and inspiring words that just make me wanna get after it in the morning.

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Um, but then I really liked how she wrote that goal on her mirror, so I decided to write that time goal and see if I liked it, and I did really like it. Just,

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you know, the random times that you're walking through your bathroom [laughs] It's, like, nice to have that reminder. [laughs] What was that moment like when, when you achieved that goal?

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Um, it was super gratifying, because I haven't had a race where I really felt like I achieved my goal in a long time. Probably, um,

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mm, like at least two years really, um, since I had had that feeling, and I think we all know what that feeling is like as runners if you've been running a lot long enough.

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Um, eventually you have that moment where you have a breakthrough or you, um, do something that you didn't think you could do. Um, but I think, [clears throat]

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that sometimes those moments are few and far between, and especially with, um, the transition I've been going through the last two years, just going from college to pro and,

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um, getting used to training at a higher level, racing at a higher level. It can take a lot of time before you start to see results.

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And I've always known that that's how running is, and that's kind of how my college career went as well. Um, so it always has been about trusting the process for me.

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But it can get hard when you go, you know, almost two years without really feeling like you had a race that you were fully satisfied with. Mm-hmm.

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And so to finally have that feeling again, that feeling that I think we all chase after, and that's what we're all working towards, um,

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it was, it was just nice to feel that and to be reminded that, um, the grind is always worth it, and if you stay at it long enough, um, you will have that feeling again. For sure.

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So for me, for f- four years I had the same goal of- Mm-hmm... breaking three hours in the marathon. And it didn't actually happen until I had a mental shift in perspective, and I, I changed- Mm-hmm...

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my sort of focus and approach- Mm-hmm... to running and training. Um, how, how did it-- how did it happen for you? What, what do you think contributed to, uh, to a breakthrough like that? Mm-hmm. Um, uh, yeah. I think

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similarly, I had some mental shifts in, um, how I was thinking about my training and how I was thinking about my racing. And

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I think what I was able to do so well in college, which allowed me to really develop in the latter years of my collegiate career, was that I was just so focused on, um, being the best me that I could be and being the best runner that I could be.

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And, um, instead of, um, playing the comparison game, which is so easy to do- Mm-hmm... in our sport, and, you know, also just having fun with it.

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And, um, one of my college coaches, uh, just always said, like, I really found my swagger at the end of college. And whatever that thing is that makes you feel confident and excited to go race. Like, for me, I always,

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um, put glitter on my eyes [laughs] and I kind of put a lot of glitter on, and that was my way of finding my swag in college and just, like, feeling, um, excited to go out there and race. And, you know, it's not just the

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aesthetic of having the glitter, it's really just- [laughs]... a feeling of, like, being loose and making it a fun thing. And- Yeah... um, all the things that come with that.

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And so I think it was sort of refinding that in a professional scene, and it was really hard to do because, um, you're playing the comparison game with your teammates every day.

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And, um, that can be a really positive thing. It can be, you know, a tool that you use when you step up to the line and you say, "I train with some of the best in the world, and I know I'm ready for this."

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But at the same time, you have some of the best people in the world next to you every day, and they're doing things that you can't do.

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And I think sometimes it makes you question, like, um, you know, am I really good enough? And can I eventually one day maybe do what they're doing now?

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And, um, so I think it was really about finding a way to, um,

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not let that get in the way of my own self-belief and find a way to use it as something that really inspired me and, um-So yeah, I think it was just a process of, you know, every day at training camp this January, I had to remind myself, like, you know, focus on what you're doing well, like focus on the progress you've made since last year, focus on the progress you've made since last week, and like think about all the consistent work that you're putting in, and just really, um,

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really focusing on what I was doing well and why I thought that that was gonna produce good results one day.

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Um, and so it's like pretty simple, but overall, I would say it was a mentality shift of just being more focused on what I was doing well and, and finding that own personal swagger again.

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I think the swagger thing is really understated. Mm-hmm. Um, uh, and I love that. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Um, my version of, of race day glitter is, uh, marathon mustache, so I- Oh, yes. [laughs]...

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I definitely, [laughs] I definitely feel you on the do something different and do it for fun. Um- Yes, I love that. [laughs] Um, and, and it's, it's worked once, and it hasn't worked once. So- Okay.

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[laughs] But either way, um, I like, I, I did it intentionally because it's like a way to take yourself a little less seriously and, and sort of remind yourself that at the end of the day, we're doing something that we enjoy- Mm-hmm...

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and we should be smiling, and we should be happy. Mm-hmm.

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And yeah, you can have your game face on at the line, but, um, I think, I think if you're in a place on that starting line where you're happy and you're satisfied and you're fulfilled- Mm-hmm...

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versus like this is a test, um, I think it puts you in a very different head space. Right. Right. And being excited about the possibility of what you could do, rather than feeling pressure of, what if I don't do it?

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So as a professional athlete, you're, you're somewhat judged on race day, and, um, and that's sort of in parallel with the fact that if you don't see it as a test, I think you can be more successful.

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So how do you, how... Uh, is it really just, you know, like what are you, what are you thinking about on the line to, to, um, keep yourself calm? I think I was putting a lot of pressure on myself all of last year.

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It was my first full year as a pro, and I like did kind of see it as I have to prove myself a little bit. And, um,

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I was able to sort of shift that mentality this indoor season, now being my second year, and I think the biggest change is just that, um, I'm able to finally

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believe and like see myself as belonging, um, in this group and on this level. And, um, just having that

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personal belief that I belong is enough to feel like, "Okay, well, I already know that I belong, and it, it doesn't really matter. Like, eventually if anybody thinks that I don't, um, eventually they'll see that I do."

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Um, but just being able to believe that myself is enough to take the pressure off of the race and say, "I already know I belong.

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I know I've been putting in the work," and I have to remember that at the end of the day, I am just racing for myself, and I am just racing to see how good I can be. And so it was definitely hard to get there at first.

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It's just such a huge change. At least for me, I felt like it was such a huge change going from college to the pro scene and being on such a talented team.

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Um, it took me a while to get there, but I feel like I've come a long way with that mentality shift. Why did you, uh, why did you wanna be a pro?

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I didn't really know anything about professional running until later in my college career. I was pretty naive.

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Um, I mean, I obviously knew who some of the big name Olympians were, but I didn't really follow the scene at all and didn't really know that that would ever even be a possibility for me one day. And I just

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fell in love with the process of trying to get better year over year in college, and seeing the progress that I was making in those later years in college was kind of addicting.

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And, um, just every time that I would take a step forward and make another improvement just makes you wanna do it again. And I,

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once I found out that it would be a possibility to keep going after college, it was a pretty easy decision, and I was never somebody who knew what I wanted to do after college.

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I'd never had that one career dream growing up, like to be a doctor or a lawyer or something.

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And, um, what I studied in school was pretty interdisciplinary, because I didn't feel like I was ready to focus on any given subject. And so when I realized that professional running was an option, it sort of felt like

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it was meant to be, because I was like, "This is the one thing that I feel so passionate about, that I actually really wanna do it when I graduate." And I just,

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um, really wanted to keep-Kind of riding that improvement wave and see how far I could go and, um, see kind of what that ultimate potential is in there. That's awesome.

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One of the things I love most about running is exactly what you said. Mm-hmm. It's that, like, it's that continual growth, and looking back on what used to be hard is now, uh, attainable. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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Or, uh, what used to be impossible is now hard. Mm-hmm. And just, I like to think of it as, like, leveling up and, you know, what, what you used to do in college is now, you know, an easy week.

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And, you know, what you might be doing in three years is what's hard for you now. Mm-hmm. And I think that that's, like, the beautiful part of it, that it's, it...

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You mentioned the comparison game, but it's like the ability to compare yourself against previous versions of yourself, and I think that that's-- it's a really cool reflection. Totally. Totally.

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Um, so where do you see yourself going? [laughs] That's so hard to answer, because I wouldn't have been able to answer that question, uh, three years ago. Uh, I never would have seen this.

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Um, so part of me, like, doesn't want to imagine a specific scenario, because I just wanna leave open all possibilities- Mm-hmm... and kind of let myself develop and let myself surprise myself if I can.

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Um, but I definitely see myself doing this for a long time, you know. Knock on wood, I can stay healthy and my body will let me. But

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I- what I like to envision is just, um, continuing to get better year after year, and just taking another step each year.

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And, um, you know, if you add that all up together, it can add up kind of quickly in the sum of another five years. Um, but I don't really like to envision anything crazy specific, if that makes sense.

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Yeah, definitely. So, um, so I've done,

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I don't know, probably 75 podcasts, um, interviewing elite and professional athletes, and th- there are a few commonalities across the board, whether they're track athletes, road athletes, or trail and ultra.

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And the, the biggest consistency is a focus on the journey versus a focus on the outcome. And, um, I love how you put it.

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It was-- It-- You know, you didn't say, "I wanna run, you know, 1435 in the 5K," or, "I wanna be an Olympian," or, "I wanna, um, you know," whatever. It was like, "I just wanna get better." And, and I think that

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across the, you know, the 75 interviews that I've done so far, like 75% of people have said pretty much exactly that, and I think that that plays into a part of why people can be successful.

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Um, the first podcast I did with, was with Ben Rosario, um- Mm-hmm...

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the Hoka Northern Arizona elite coach, and, you know, he's got a, a stable of these amazing athletes and, and they're winning races and, and PRing all over the place.

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And he was like, "We don't talk about numbers, and we don't talk about placement. We talk about executing and getting the best out of yourself- Mm-hmm... on race day and celebrating the process."

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And I mean, personally, that's what it took for me to, to run a 20-minute PR in the marathon, and, um, that was four years in the making. And- Yeah... um, I think that there's, there's a, um...

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And I've, I've commented on, on this before on the podcast with some others, and I think that there's a sort of a, a role reversal or a disconnect between

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what pros are focusing on and what amateurs are focusing on, and it seems like it's a little counterintuitive.

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Um, and, and by that I mean many amateurs, myself included, for a while were focused or are focused on time goals and these arbitrary time goals of three hours, four hours, five hours, whereas someone who's being paid to run is, is literally saying, [laughs] "I don't wanna think about that.

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I wanna just think about getting better." And so I think it's a really good message to, to put out there. Um, and, uh, that's-- for me, that's what it took.

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And, and now, you know, I see the sky as the limit, uh- Mm-hmm... for, for growth potential. Yeah, for sure. And I think I learned a lot of that, um, from my college coach, Chris Milenberg.

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He was so process-oriented and just always driving home the point that if you keep, [sighs]

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if you keep at it and you don't do anything special other than show up every day with purposeful intention, you're gonna keep getting better.

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And, and he wasn't super focused on outcome, and he kinda made me fall in love with that process. Um, at the same time, like, obviously I went into the BU 5K with the goal of wanting to break 15 minutes. Right.

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So of course there are those time goals, but, um,

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that was, you know, something that I was able to see was possible through my workouts in the couple weeks leading up to it, and I-- that was something that made me really excited about possibly trying to attack.

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And so as long as it makes you excited and you kind of, like, can use it as, um,

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something to get you fired up for the race, and then you kind of put it on the back burner, um, or in the back of your mind and say like, "Okay, that's the dream scenario.

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Now I'm just gonna focus on, um, running the best race that I can."Totally makes sense. What's the, what's the training environment like?

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You're with some of the best athletes in the world, with some of the best coaches in the world. Um, what, what is it like on a day-to-day basis? So we do pretty much all of our training together. We have, um,

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10 women plus, um... I guess 11, but, uh, one is a marathoner, so we don't do as much training with Amy. Um, but yeah, we do... I mean, now it's different. I should say our day-to-day now- Yeah...

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is completely different. But, um- Yeah... in typical circumstances, we're meeting every day to run as a big group, and we mostly do all of our track workouts in one group.

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Like, the, you know, 1,500-meter specialists are doing the same workouts as the 10K specialists.

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And especially during, like, fall and winter, I guess, you know, leading up to bigger races in the spring, it gets more separate.

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But, um, yeah, it's pretty fun that we are really doing almost everything together on a day-to-day, um, of our training. So now we're in this crazy time when, you know, we don't know when the next race is. Yeah.

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We don't know when we can see our training partners. Mm-hmm. Um, where, where is your focus at a time like this?

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Yeah, I mean, I think everybody's kind of shifted their focus to thinking of this, like, the fall, like a base training phase. And so I've kinda tried to do the same thing.

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But, um, it's definitely been really hard to do that, uh, especially when, um... And I think a lot of my teammates would feel similarly, just coming off of a, a big indoor season and having a lot of momentum.

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We all had really good momentum coming from BU, and having big, um, aspirations for the season, having a plan to run, uh, a 10K, would've been running a 10K this past weekend at Stanford.

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And I think it is hard to just all of a sudden completely shift that focus [laughs] and try to... You kinda wanna, like, hold onto that momentum and progress that you felt in February.

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But, like, you wanna save it for later and sort of refocus on just building those miles back in and, um, you know, pushing that, that big goal that you were really, like, amping up for this summer.

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Pushing that back so far, um, you know, over a year away now is our main focus, and then not even knowing when we're racing this summer. So,

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um, yeah, I mean, it's simple to be like, "Yeah, we're just gonna focus on our base training and get stronger right now," but I'd be lying if I said that's, like- [laughs]... an easy shift to make. [laughs] Right.

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Um, and I think it's just, it's a little bit of a limbo of, you know, what's motivating you right now. But I think that's kind of a good test in a way.

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Like, okay, how do you get motivated when there's nothing on the calendar to, to get you as fired up right away? Um, and, and kind of just re-falling in love with training and having that be enough. Um,

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so in a way I think it's a good thing just to appreciate running for what it is without having anything that you're really working for, specifically in the short term at least. So how are you staying motivated?

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[laughs] Um, I like to still think about, like, my goals for next year, and knowing that the work that I do now actually is going to make a huge impact on what I'm able to do next year.

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Just because I've seen that usually the effects of what you do in training don't happen a month later or even three months later.

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Like, the effects of what you do in training, um, today are gonna really show actually in a year. Um, at least that's been my experience, you know?

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Just it takes time for the hard work to really show through. Um, so I think remembering that what I'm doing right now is gonna really pay off for bigger dreams that I have in the far future. But also just, um,

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being grateful that we can still run outside. I mean, we're going... You know, we're not training as a group anymore, but the fact that I can go outside and run with, um, my roommate, Elise Cranny, who's on the team.

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So we're kind of running buddies during this time, and just using that as motivation. Like, you know, not everybody can do what they love right now. Not everybody can train for their sport right now.

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Um, and the fact that we can still do that simple task of running, um, I'm really happy for that. Yeah, it's awesome.

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It's like I, I have a bunch of friends who are triathletes and, and they can't do, you know, a third of their, of their sports. Right. Um- Right... and

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I think that we're seeing more people than ever pick up running, and hopefully, hopefully that's something that lasts and, um, you know, people s- start running and enjoy it, and, you know, we see another running boom.

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Um- Yeah. I hope so too... what are you... How are you offsetting the, um-The, like the whole gym aspect.

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I know y- your group is, um, pretty consistent with gym work Mm-hmm So what, what have you been doing, um, what have you been doing in, in this situation? It was really awesome. USATF, um, actually,

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uh, basically gave their athletes a stipend to order, um, home gym equipment. Oh, wow. And so I was able to get pretty much everything that we normally use in the gym. I have- Mm-hmm...

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uh, a little box for step-ups and box jumps, kettlebell, um, little dumbbells, and then I got a hex bar with some weight plates to do, um, hex bar deadlifts and squats. Mm. So,

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um, we're not like crazy fancy in the weight room, um, but just those little pieces of equipment are, um, really nice to have, and I'm able to get basically everything that I would normally be doing in.

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So it was really nice that USA Track and Field was able to provide that to the athletes. That's awesome. Yeah. Um, is grati- is gratitude something that you practice, uh, intentionally?

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Um, I wouldn't say it's something that I do consciously or intentionally, um, but maybe I should. It kind of sounds nice to [laughs] do that. [laughs] Um, but I think I, I just kind of naturally do it a lot.

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Um, I think any time that, you know, a negative thought creeps in, which, you know, when you're training really hard, and, um, like I said, like training with the best of the best, and the comparison game can happen.

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I think I o- I've learned to always come back to that with an answer of gratitude. Like, you know, if I'm feeling sorry for myself because I had a bad workout, um, you know, I always like to say like, "I'm

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so lucky that I'm, you know, training healthy right now, and that I am able to be a part of this group." Like, if I ever just stop and think for a minute about how crazy it is that I'm training with

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Shelby Houlihan and Karisa Schweitzer, and Jerry Schumacher's my coach, [laughs] and if I like really pinch myself for a second, um, that's actually just kind of still mind-blowing to me.

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Um, and that always re-centers me and, um, you know, makes me feel that gratitude rather than any negative emotion I might be feeling about a particular off day or something. That's awesome.

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Um, what are some of the other things that keep you healthy and able to be consistent? Uh, I would say that

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just being really methodical about, um, any increases in volume and intensity in my training, and really listening to my body. So for example,

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um, you know, when I went pro, we knew that I would be increasing my mileage. My weekly mileage would go up, and, you know, you don't wanna ever do that by too much.

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So each year it's like, you know, maybe 5 or 10 more miles I'll add on for my weekly mileage. Um, but in college, I always had one day almost completely off or just like literally a 15-minute jog to shake out my legs.

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Um, and a lot of athletes on our team, um, almost all of them I guess [laughs] that like what used to be that off day for me, they run like eight or nine miles.

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Um, and so I knew that that would be a huge jump, and that would probably not be the smartest thing based on what I was used to.

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So I intentionally kept one day of the week, um, you know, I increased it from 15 minutes to like 30 or 40 minutes, and, um, I- I've stuck with that.

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Like, I always have one day where I only run 40 minutes max, and for me, that was just like the smart progression, uh, to do that from what I was used to in college.

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And so making like little small decisions like that that seem, um, really simple I think can actually go a long way, where you're just like, "You know what? Like, I'm just not gonna push the boundary on this one thing.

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I'm gonna, um, really just hold myself back this one day." Or even, um, in any given run, like just being really careful of like,

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"You know, I feel okay, but I'm just gonna let myself run slow today because that's what I need to recover." So just doing a lot of slow, easy running,

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um, even if I feel fine in between hard workouts, um, goes a really long way as far as just being able to stay healthy and consistent 'cause that's the number one thing is like not, you know, how hard you push any given day, it's just being able to string those days together year after year.

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Awesome. How do you use nutrition to help support, uh, training and, and healthy running? Um, for me [laughs] I feel like my biggest thing is just

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always making sure I eat enough and eat frequently enough. Like, you know, I think-I know enough how to eat a balanced diet and, you know, the different n- nutrients that I need. Um, and it's just, you know,

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being really diligent about, you know, having those snacks every couple of hours and just really making sure that my caloric needs are met.

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And my whole philosophy, you know, some people are really strict about no sugar, no dessert during the season, and, you know, for some people, that works for them. That's great. But for me, um, I'm kind of

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like more about just, like, what do I feel like I'm craving? And if I'm craving- Mm-hmm... um,

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ice cream, if I'm craving, you know, a giant muffin, like, whatever it might be, I, like, always eat whatever I feel like eating. Um, and that just is what keeps me sane.

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And I also feel like usually if my body is feeling like it wants something, it means that I just, I need those calories. Um, so yeah. I have, like, a pretty,

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I guess, balanced approach to it, and not a very strict approach to it. It's more of just, like, what do I feel like eating, and I always wanna make sure that I'm eating enough more than anything. For sure.

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Um, what do you wish you knew when you were in college or a beginner runner that you know now? Ooh, that's a good one. [laughs] Um, I think...

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I don't know. It's hard, 'cause in a way, like, so when I was, um, a beginner runner, like, even, you know, my freshman and sophomore year of college, I was still pretty naive to the whole running scene.

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Um, but in a way, I kind of appreciate that I had that naivete, and it kind of, um... I don't know. It, it made it so running was just--

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it developed naturally for me, um, versus having all this knowledge about what I needed to do to get good or what it meant to be good. Um, it just sort of, like, developed super organically.

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Um, so in a way, I'm like, I don't know if I wish I knew anything different.

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[laughs] It's kind of fun that I, like, slowly learned more about myself over the years and slowly learned the lessons that I learned, even as a pro, you know, over time, even though, you know, that can take a long time, and there are some painful lessons in there.

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Um, I kind of appreciate that it's, it's a, an ever, um, kind of ever-growing process of learning. Cool.

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Um, how do you feel about balance, or what's your-- w- how do you balance running? That is something that I think I'm still trying to figure out.

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I think I really thrived in the collegiate at- environment, being a student athlete. I loved that I had something outside of running that felt really important.

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Um, you know, I took school seriously and really enjoyed it, and I also enjoyed the social aspect of school, and it just made me feel really balanced and complete as a person.

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And of course, that changes when you're a professional, and as it should. I mean, it's, um,

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in a lot of ways, it's great that I don't have school, because I can train so much harder, and I have so much more time to recover. But I've realized that, y- you know, in order to run at this level,

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it takes so much time and energy that, like, physically and emotionally, I don't feel like I have much room to, um, you know, be doing anything really much outside of running.

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But then mentally, I think sometimes I miss having that balance.

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So it's kind of something I'm still figuring out, and I think I, I really look up to Shalane and how I think she found that, you know, passion outside of running with her cookbook. And I think sometimes those things,

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um, it just takes a while to figure out that balance with your running career. And so I sort of told myself that these first couple of years, I would just allow running to be the number one thing.

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I mean, it's always the number one thing. But just, like, allow myself to feel a little bit off balance, if you will. Like, allow myself to just be super focused on this.

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And then as I get more comfortable with this, like, just even exploring, um, other passions through, like, reading and little things. And, um, slowly, I think I'll figure that balance out. Yeah.

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The way I like to see it is, like, the pendulum swings in different directions at times- Mm-hmm. [laughs]... and it can't always stay one direction. But, um, in the moment, that's where it is. Yeah.

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Yeah, and, like, being okay with that too, you know? For sure. Um, why did you go for your first run?

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Do you remember?I remember in kindergarten they would send us out to run laps, and I always really liked that. [laughs] Um, so there was definitely always a natural draw to running.

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And then I did the Girls on the Run program. I started in third grade, so I guess that was my first kind of like formal organized run. Um, and I,

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I mean, I basically signed up to do that program 'cause all my classmates were doing it, and, um, I mean, I knew I l- I had an affinity for running. So, um, yeah. Cool. What's your favorite distance?

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5K. Um, funny enough, so that was the distance that they prepare you to run in the Girls on the Run program. It's like a r- a road 5K at the end of the season.

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So that was the first race that I ever ran in third grade, and I thought it felt like a great distance. And so my very first email address that I made in fifth grade was, uh, 5Kcruiser.

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[laughs] And I do still have that email. It's like my, like, burner email account now, but- [laughs] Um, yeah, so- It's gonna be flooded with emails after this podcast. [laughs] Yeah. 5kcruiser@sbcglobal.net.

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Um- [laughs] But yeah, it's, that's just... I don't know. I think I, I have always had a special place in my heart for the 5K. That's awesome.

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So my 5K PR is from 2016, sorry, 2014, at a race that, um, Shalane, uh, helped support, um, for her, her hometown track in Marblehead, Massachusetts. Uh-huh.

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And I, [laughs] I haven't been able to run that time in a race in six years. So here's a bit of a selfish question. How do you race a, [laughs] how do you race a 5K?

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[laughs] The way that I like to think about it is, um, like, no matter how hard the pace is, the first two miles are, like, nap time. Like, it's a tempo.

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You are so relaxed and so zoned out for those first two miles. And, you know, [laughs]

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the pace that I ran the first two miles in Boston at is not a pace that I would've ever thought would be relaxing, and I still don't think of it as relaxing. It's like 4:48 per mile.

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But, um, somehow I'm able to just shift into that, like, thinking, "No matter how hard it is, this is a tempo, and this is easy," and just tell myself that for two miles.

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And then with a mile to go, it's just like, okay, now I'm running the hardest mile that I possibly can. Like, I'm just gonna go all out on this one mile. Like, everybody can run a hard mile. [laughs] So- [laughs]

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That's how I always- Don't screw it up from here. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] You-- this is like, when we're gonna wake up and, like, make things happen. Yeah. I love it.

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Um, I spent a couple years focused on the 5K, and, um, I raced like that... So that was fa- uh, November of 2014, and between October and November, I ran, like, five or six of them and ended up taking a full minute off.

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And it was like- Oh, wow... if you... Yeah, it was, I mean, I, [laughs] I had a long way to go from where I started from to, to where I ended up, um, a- as sort of, like, a new runner back then.

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But it's, it's fascinating 'cause, like, I, I'm so much more fit now, but I've never, [laughs] I've never run that fast. Yeah, yeah. And, and the, the last time I came close to it, um, I, I, I was riding that tempo,

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uh, max line- Uh-huh... a little too far- Right... on the max side, and I, I didn't have enough when, when I needed it at the end. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and so it's like, it's such a delicate balance, and I think that's what's so fun. It's like, it hurts so much, and then, and then it's over, and you can, you can walk after. Yeah.

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[laughs] You might not be able to breathe, but- Yeah. [laughs]... [laughs] you can walk.

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I vividly remember being in, in this Marblehead, in this parking lot in Marblehead, just, like, not able to breathe, and it's just, like, such a fun- [laughs] It's such a fun feeling, right? Yeah, yeah.

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I really like the 5K pain. Um- Yeah... I couldn't, I could never do, like, the 800-meter pain. Um, it's, like, totally different. Um- [laughs]... and I can't even imagine what the marathon pain is like. [laughs] Yeah.

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It's, it's so fascinating how these, how all these different races have such a different feeling. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I've had a handful of conversations with 800-meter runners, and they're like, "You go out and it doesn't feel good at all- Uh-uh... [laughs] for, for any of it. Yeah. And if it does, you're doing it wrong."

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Right. [laughs] Um, and same thing with, with the mile. Um, so, uh, well, awesome. So w- what do you wish your fans knew about you? Uh, hmm.

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Somebody once said they can play piano, and they wish, they wish people knew about that. I did actually play piano for a long time growing up. [laughs] But I don't think anybody knows that. There you go.

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Probably for, like, [laughs] like 12 years. [laughs] Um, maybe I need to get a keyboard or something in my room, and that'll be, like, a fun way to keep some balance in my life. That's what I figured out.

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[laughs] Awesome. [laughs] Um, uh, yeah, I don't know. Well, I think, uh, I think the keyboard counts. Mm-hmm. Um, so where, where can we f- where can we follow along if we want to, uh, follow your, your journey?

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I mostly just use Instagram. Uh, nessafrazier is my handle. Um, I've just never really figured out the Twitter game.

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Um- [laughs] So yeah, you can pretty much- But let's talk about, let's talk about your handle, lochnessmonstar. Oh, yeah. Where did that come from?

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[laughs] Um, it, uh, well, I wanted to just spell it like the normal Loch Ness Monster, um, and I don't think that spelling was available, so I just had to- [laughs]...

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I was like, "Oh, I'll put a star at the end 'cause, yeah, a star sounds cool." [laughs] But yeah, I wish- Awesome...

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I made my handle Nesquik, 'cause that's a nickname that I, um, you know, got a couple years ago from my friend's little brother. He was like, "You should be called Nesquik, like the chocolate milk."

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And [laughs] that name kind of stuck, and I'm like, "That's what my handle should've been all along." [laughs] Nice. Well, thanks so much for joining in today, and we'll be, uh, we'll be rooting for you.

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And, uh, and have fun out there. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Of course. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end.

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I hope you join in next week on For the Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails. If you've enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too