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[upbeat music] Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated.
I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt. I've been running for a few years now and have the privilege of meeting many incredible runners on my travels all across the country.
This podcast is intended to share those amazing conversations. Today's guest is Devon Yanko. Devon lives in California, where she enjoys both trail and road running.
Devon co-owns a bakery called MH Bread and Butter in Mill Valley, California.
In today's episode, we talked about what keeps Devon excited about the running community, the Donner Party 50K that she helps support, sponsorship, and how the running community has changed over the f- last few years, and all about the importance of being in control of your own health and being your own strongest advocate.
Enjoy. [laughs] So we caught that. We- we're- we're live. We're live. We're... So I'm live here with Devon Yanko in, uh... Is it sunny in San Francisco? No. No. No. It's- it's gloomy. Um- Atmospheric. Atmospheric. Yeah.
San Francisco. Yeah. Um, what's the, what's the weather term they're using these days? Uh, the atmospheric river is what it is. Got it. So that's- Cool... super fun. Yeah. It's, it's been, it's been wet out there.
Slightly. Slightly wet. It's like taking a shower while running down the trail. Yes. So, um, we are here in San Francisco with Devon Yanko.
Devon is a trail runner, road runner, marathoner, ultra runner, uh, baker, uh, all around awesome human.
Um, Devon is one of the, the, the biggest role models I have in the sport, so I'm super excited to, to sit down with her, uh, and, and chat about running and what got her into running and, um, what keeps her running, and, uh, both from a, a motivation standpoint, but also a baked goods standpoint.
So [laughs] for those of you that don't know, she owns, uh, co-owns a bakery with her husband, uh, in Marin, and, uh, it is delicious. So Devon, thanks for, uh, thanks for joining today. Thanks for having me. Of course.
Um, so let's get right into it. Um, I was first introduced to you by Mike Wardian. Really? [laughs] A couple years ago.
And yes, I had seen, um, some of the, you know, some of the stuff about you in, in terms of Western States and all that good stuff.
Um, and it was, uh, it was super cool to connect and, and, um, Mike as a, at the time, a fellow HOKA teammate, um, I think introduced us and, uh, and so you reached out looking to, uh, looking to talk about health. And
so health has been, um, sort of at the, at the forefront for you the last couple years. So do you wanna chat a little bit about, um... Let's dive right into it. Like w- [laughs] What...
People are, people are curious, you know, how, how do you balance the health and performance side of things? Yeah. I mean, I have always had
no really big problems with injury in my life, but health has always been, like, I mean, we're talking since I was a baby.
Like, I have probably had more medical tests on me in my lifetime than most people will ever have to experience. Um, I mean, going...
I, I remember being in the fifth grade and having to stay home from school for a month and, like, with an undiagnosable, like, flu-like situation. And, you know, that p- has persisted throughout my life. Um,
and, you know, getting into running really helps with health, but when you're running the kind of volume and the kind of intense race schedule that I do, like, when I get it wrong, it's, I get it really wrong and I end up,
you know, like, burying myself and getting really sick. Um, so I've missed more races or had to reschedule races because I've been sick, and usually for a long time I was just like, "Oh, it's just
I have a sensitive immune system. I'm, and I'm not robust. Like, I, I race a lot, so it's, you know, normal that I would get sick." But, um, especially last year... So I had foot surgery in
2017, and I was able to come back from that. I was ba- went from on the table getting a bone removed to running in six weeks, and I didn't take into account, like, the stress that put on my body.
And so the beginning of last year,
um, I was trying to train to run a marathon PR, and I started out of the gate feeling good, and I just pretty much the first week of February I went out and I ran a local half marathon here, and it was...
I just felt terrible. Like, I ran, I think I ran, like... I couldn't even run, like, half of what I wanted to run in the marathon.
And I was like, "Oh, maybe I'm just a little sick," and it kind of ended up spiraling, like, out of control, and I had to do extensive testing, and I finally got a diagnosis, um, that I have been on thyroid medication for hypothyroid for a long time.
But it turns out that I have the autoimmune disorder, uh, Hashimoto's, and so there was a reason why-You aren't feeling great. I'm not feeling great Yeah. So we had to unravel that.
Um, I have, you know, I have issues with mold, I've had issues, like I have reoccurring mono, like essentially things that are tied into autoimmune disorder, and just kind of like not having robust health. Mm-hmm.
And so, um, and one of the major causes for me, of some of my issues, was also my w- my guts and my absorption.
So like I wasn't actually absorbing the nutrition that could've been helping me, because I have had lifelong stomach problems. I'm the ironic gluten-free baker- [laughs]... um, who doesn't own a gluten-free bakery.
I own a fully glutenous bakery. [laughs] Um, so it was interesting over the summer, we, uh, with my doctors, we actually focused on
fixing my stomach, um, on top of all the other stuff, and that actually has really helped. Um, but it's, it's lifelong. And like even this year, you know, I finally, um, had a really good training block and I
ran my second fastest marathon time ever, um, on a day that wasn't really a P- I was going for a PR and it wasn't a PR day, you know, running solo into a headwind is not
the greatest, but I ran the effort I, like, that I knew I was capable of. And immediately after that, like the week of the race, my doctor had changed my thyroid medication, and two weeks later
I was like overmedicated and like shaking and like having an insane... Like, having all these really crazy symptoms. But at least now I'm able to kind of understand my body enough to be like, "Okay, this is what...
at least the source is." So, but it's something that I'm just always gonna have to deal with and be careful of, because intense training, it's not like... It's never been like I do this, then X happens, right? Right.
Like, I can go for a year and be fine. It's not formulaic, yeah. Yeah, it's not formulaic, and I think that that's...
I know a lot of people reach out to me to talk about, like, their issues with autoimmune disorder, and it's so individual, and it's like what has worked for me w- once doesn't work for me the next time. Right.
Um, but it is nice to... Like, last year was very helpful in that I had been fighting for answers for a really long time.
Like, you go in as a healthy person, like for me, I go into the doctor and I say, "I'm tired," and they go, "Well, maybe you should run less." And I'm like, "Well,
I've been able to run 120 miles a week and feel fine, and I, I know- I know I can be better, yeah... I, like I know what I'm telling you. I know what tired is. Yeah. I know what... Th- this doesn't feel right.
And so just being an advocate for my own health, like that's been the most helpful thing for me. Definitely.
And that's a trend, we were talking earlier about how long it takes to get an MRI, and like all these crazy things, and, and the biggest theme is that, like, you have to be your own best advocate, and you can't just accept that, like, you don't feel good, okay, that's n- now status quo, and like that's your new normal.
Um, I think it's been cool watching over the years just how, like, vocal you've been about your own health, and your own, um, sort of desire to get answers.
And then on the flip side, you've been, um, you've been super open about, like, when things aren't going right, you don't race or you back off.
And we were talking earlier about, um, you know, not racing a race just because it's there, um, and, and instead honoring your body and honoring the, you know, the rest and, and what you need to do for longevity sake.
Yeah, and I think the hard thing for me was finally realizing that, you know, I, I had this sense of, like, kind of like this picture that I created of pressure that doesn't necessarily really exist. And
I won't say it doesn't exist. When I had different sponsorships over the years, like I have had explicit pressure to do certain things. Right, you need to do this race, yeah. Yeah.
I mean, that exists, but a lot of the time the pressure is on me. Internally, yeah. I'm like, I'm the one that- Yeah... booked the schedule.
Like, literally, like I was supposed to go to Tarawera, um, two weeks after I did Houston, and I couldn't because of the overmedication, and I signed up for another race because I was like, "But I said I was gonna race, so I'm gonna do something else."
And it, and when I decided not to do that secondary race, I felt so anxious, because I was like, "But I said I was gonna do it," and like I don't have a good enough reason not to.
But I was like, I have plenty, like I can take, like- You don't have to race, but yeah... a bunch of in-small reasons, there's still enough reasons to not force myself- Right... to go run 50K when I don't wanna run 50K.
And I think that that's been the biggest shift for me is to actually... You know, in the past I would still try to push through and then, you know, halfway through- Pay for it...
halfway through the race I'm beating myself up for knowing better and making the wrong decision. So now it's just being like, "Yep, I'm gonna, I'm gonna humble myself and say I can't do this." And
there's so many races, and it's so easy to get wrapped up in wanting to do so much that I've just kind of been like, "No, I wanna do the things that feel right, and the things that I go all in on."
Like, I spent the longest training block [laughs] for me, like I went three full months without racing, which is a long time. That's a long time for you, yeah.
[laughs] It's like my coach was like, "I'm so impressed you actually managed that, to pull that off," um, for Houston. And like I, I really en- I really enjoyed that, and I can see now that, like,
I ran well because I did that. And so there's finding that balance between wanting to race and wanting to be out there and wanting to experience all these cool things, but also balancing all the other factors. Yeah.
And I think that's, I've been doing this long enough that-I kind of, I finally, it took me what, something like 11 or 12 years to finally get over like the incessant need to feel like- FOMO? Not even FOMO.
It's like proving myself. Yeah. And I don't actually think that any, like I've ever needed to prove myself, but I, I don't know.
Like it's like every year of my entire ultrarunning career, I've felt like, "Oh, it's a blank slate." Yeah. "I gotta go do some- I gotta, you know, go do something amazing."
And it, it was funny, 'cause last year somebody was interviewing me, and they were talking about how I had kind of like a down year. And I was like, "You think? You don't remember that I like won a marathon outright?"
[laughs] Or like I was seventh at Comrades. And it's like, it's funny to me that people think, that there was this attitude like, "Oh, you didn't race that much." And I'm like, "I raced like five marathons- [laughs]...
and a couple of ultras. Oh, I was in the world championships." Like- Yeah... so it's kind of like that sense of like- What have you done lately? Yeah...
yeah, and it's like, and it's like, it's n- it's never gonna be enough. And at the same time- Unless it's always enough... it's always enough. Yeah.
And so I just kind of now am a little bit more guided by coming back to that my worth, it, it took, took me most of my life to realize that like worth is not a currency. Like worth is a set thing. So
if I race or I don't race, it doesn't actually change my worth. Right. And it doesn't actually change who I am in the eyes of anybody else.
Like, and that's part of the reason why I share my journey is people connect with that part versus the running part.
Like most of the time, the thing that people say to me about running is like, "I can't imagine running that far." So it's like we're not connecting on that point. [laughs] Yeah. Yep. Yeah, it's totally...
It's just a total different experience. Yeah. So you mentioned you've been in the sport a while. You've had a lot of sponsors.
One of the things that, um, some of the feedback I've heard so far on the podcast is that people are enjoying the, the sort of the, the look into the life of a, of a pro runner.
So what's it like to have these sponsorship obligations when you're balancing what you're doing with, um, with, with who you are- I mean-... and, and what you wanna do? Yeah. Uh, I have been
incredibly lucky over my career to enjoy sp- sponsorship with a lot of different companies. I did my first ultra in 2006, so back in the dark ages when half of you were in high school. [laughs] Um, and- No comment.
[laughs] I was really young then. [laughs] I, I did it, I was, 2006, I was 24. I, you know, it, it wasn't cool then. People thought I was a weirdo- Yeah... 'cause I was so young. Well, we're still weirdos, but- I know.
We're still weirdos. Um, sponsorship is, has given me a lot of opportunities to see a lot of things that I otherwise wouldn't. Um, on the other hand, I have always had a full-time job.
Um, so it's a balance between the perception of what the ask is and making sure like for me that's congruent with what this relationship should actually be. Right. Um, but it's,
it's hard because being sponsored is like, I mean, you can, we can all talk about like not having an ego, but like it's nice. Somebody wants you. Right. You know? You wanna be a part of a team. You wanna belong.
Like I was on the f- first Salomon global team, like the first time they started doing their Salomon TV. Like I watched that video the other day, and I was like, "Oh, I look so young." [laughs] "Such a baby," you know?
It's like it's cool to be a part of that and- Yeah... the opportunity it affords. At the same time, with sponsorship, you have to understand with a brand, they are trying to sell a product.
And in the outdoor industry, and in ultrarunning in s- in particular, if a marketing direction changes and you're brought in... For instance, I was brought in to a company,
um, about the time that I, we started the bakery, which made it more complicated to be a sponsored athlete because I was working 100 hours a week.
[laughs] Um, and they brought me and some other people in under the auspice that they wanted to do more road shoes. They wanted hybrid athletes. A- and then- You mean like runners and bakers?
[laughs] Yeah, runners and bakers. [laughs] Yeah, and to me- It's a niche market, but it's a-... it's a super niche... it's a very high quality. [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] We, so, uh- A strong following. Exactly.
[laughs] Carbs and running. [laughs] Um, and so that was great. I mean, it's like I run all surfaces, all distances. I, I, I enjoy it all. And then six months into my contract, they're like, "So..." Just kidding.
And they were like, "So can you go off and do this like very big left-hand turn and go do a, something different?" And they basically said, "If you run this event
and do well, then we'll consider continuing to sponsor you." Uh-huh. And I was like, I, a- and I couldn't. I couldn't commit at that point. Like we were- Right... six months into opening, having the bakery be open.
I was like, "Mm, I can't go run an ultra." Starting at 3:00 AM. Sorry, yeah. And so it was like that is unfortunate, but it's also not personal. And like I think one of the greatest lessons for me was realizing that
it's still a com- like you're representing a company, and the company needs to make money. It's a business. And I have gotten better over time at like separating that out, because it is a human relationship. Like most
sponsors have a team manager- Right... who's like, you know, they're supporting you. They're your biggest fan, but it's also business. So it's like a lot of tho- balancing those factors. Yep.
Um, and it took me a while in my career to also see myself, see being a sponsored athlete as a business for myself, right?
So it's like remembering like to ask for what I'm worth, to ask, you know, to have boundaries with not always being available for every single thing or to be like, "Hey, you wanna jump in and do this crazy-...
idea and you're like, you feel obligated to do it, and, you know, sometimes you do things but- against your better judgment. Right. Um, and so n- now I feel like
I just have a better perspective, but it is, it is a balancing act. And, uh, for me, one of the reasons, you know, this year, um, as of
I guess m- it'll be March when this comes out, like I don't have- That might be good. We might get this out by, uh- By, okay... this afternoon, yeah. [laughs] Let's do it. [laughs] February. [laughs] 29th.
[laughs] 29th, yeah. We're adding a day this month. Yeah, it's, we're gonna add a leap year. Um, [coughs] is, like just, nah. [laughs] Just totally threw me off. [laughs] Sorry. I'll try and keep it on track here.
[laughs] Um. Work the problem, Devon. Work the problem. Work the problem. [laughs] Yeah, I just... [laughs] Um, sponsorship, what was I saying? Not being sponsored.
So it's, it's, um, you're coming into March here with y- you don't have sponsors. Yeah.
And- Oh, I know what I was gonna say, is like I made the choice to not only think of just myself and what I'm getting out of it, but having been in this sport for a long time, I have seen that
deals are made, and people, and like the, the pool of sponsored athletes in some way has been, it continually undermined because people take deals to have a deal. And so for me, [coughs]
I was offered certain things by certain companies that I felt weren't good, not just for me- For the sport... but for the sport, right? Like,
I was really enthusiastic a lo- a couple years ago when I saw more money coming into the sport, because I was like, "Maybe it is gonna change." Yeah. Like, maybe we are coming out of the woods. M- like- N- no-...
literally... no pun intended. [laughs] You know? [laughs] Like, we're coming out of the woods, we're gonna get more money in the sport, and that's good for everybody.
And then I started seeing that kind of erode pretty quickly. And so for me, [coughs] because I'm an adult, I own a business, I make money, like I didn't want to take a deal just to have a deal- Right...
on my behalf, and also so somebody else isn't being put in that position. Because I don't want to support that idea.
And I mean, it's hard because you look on social media and people are like, "I'm sponsored, I'm sponsored, I'm sponsored," and- Yeah, January 1 is an interesting day on, [laughs] on Instagram.
[laughs] Yeah, and it, and it, it's like I don't think that there's enough transparency in a lot of sports where sp- I mean, and this is across the board in running, it's like what does that, what does that deal actually mean?
Right. Right? Like, does that mean you get free shoes? Like, it's funny because I've done with crossing over into other, like triathlon and OCR, and
it's funny, when I approach those companies, like some of the bigger companies, um, [laughs] in the past, they'll be like, "We can't sponsor you, but we can give you free gear."
And it's like that mentality, it was like, that's what we call sponsorship in ultra. [laughs] So just putting myself in the position to say like- To say no... to say no. Yeah.
And to, to, to honor not just myself but the other people who are in the sport.
And for younger people to like actually come into the sport and try to make a living and like to kind of have more opportunity, like that's become more important to me than just the ego involvement and like being like, "I still have a team."
Right. And that was a big shift for me, um, over the last couple years, to just realize that like I, I want to have an impact in the sport in that like I want,
I want to do good for the sport in general, not just have good results.
Like I wanna, I want the sport to be a place that is welcoming, that is, you know, supporting other runners, and like to be kind of like what it was when I started- Right...
and like continue that on, but also help it grow. Definitely. So one of the things that I remember you saying to me couple years ago, uh, specific to InsideTracker, is like,
"We can do this because we're friends, and it's, you know, it's something I truly believe in."
And, and there's a, there's a difference between, I don't wanna talk about a certain product or whatever, but there's, there's a sponsorship and then there's something that's like bringing value to who you are, what you do, allowing you to, you know, make changes and things like that.
And it's been fascinating to, to work with you and a- and work with a whole lot of other athletes, um, through InsideTracker, that like they genuinely want to help other people improve. Yeah.
And it allows them to have a platform to, to not be the expert, but to share something that, that, uh, allows them to improve.
So it's always been, um, always- I've always been impressed with like how, how authentic you've been with sharing your own experience through health and, you know, boosting your ferritin and, you know, things like that, um, that is different than, you know, "Hey, I got this recovery product," or, you know, this, uh, whatever it might be.
Um, so it's always been super cool to, to see that. Well, and I think it's, the thing that I've struggled with in terms of like as you look for sponsorship, like the pool of potential is, it's relatively small.
And like when I was younger, I'd kinda be like, "I don't know. I'll try it. Like, sign me up." Yeah. Like, I don't, I don't really care.
But now I'm like, you know, after suffering through like a broken foot and having these health issues and just, it just makes you like, I only want those things. Right.
I only want to be a part of something that I f- I'm, that is authentic. Is working, yeah. Because you know what? Like, I am really bad at faking it. Like I, I just, [laughs]
I've never been good at like, you know, "Here's this product. Now go make it look like-" Yeah. [laughs] And I'm like, I don't-I'm not out- I don't run with my phone. Right. Like, I'm not taking selfies on the run.
Like, I'm not- Who does that? [laughs] Who does that? [laughs] You know, like, I just don't... It's, like, I- that's not, like, my style. Yeah. So having that aspect of the sponsorship has always felt,
where it is, like, being prescribed, it just ends up feeling contrived for me. Right. And so at this point, it's just like, I want to be a part of things that are, it's easy and it's genuine- Yeah...
and I believe, and I'm sharing it because it's what's actually worked for me versus, like- Someone's writing a check- Yeah... and saying to do it, yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, it's fascinating to see, specifically within the trail world versus road running, I've noticed a big difference in, I don't wanna say authenticity, but, like, the openness and the sharing of the highs and the lows and what's working and what's not working, and if you're excited about stuff or if your, you know, world is ending or whatnot.
Yeah. I mean, I, [sighs] I think it feels like a relatively new phenomenon for people to be actually sharing- Yeah... the, the highs. And, like, I don't, I've always been transparent. Um,
you know, people think that they know everything about me, and I'm transparent in the things I've already figured out for myself. [laughs] Not like...
[laughs] It's different, but like, I- there was an experience, um, Allyson Felix recently, like, had a baby, and apparently she completely hid it from social media, like, the entire time she was pregnant because of, like, she was worried about the backlash with sponsors- Huh...
and things like that, and I'm like, "That blew my mind." Yeah, that's wild. Right? Like, that you can't talk about some part of your life and- Like, a basic human, like, essential function. Yeah.
Like, you need to have babies in order to like... [laughs] Yeah. And I mean, even, even, like, I, [clears throat] I've been trying to limit my own social media time.
Most people know I'm off Twitter, I'm off Facebook, like, I- Instagram. But, like, I now have even curled tailed back Instagram because there's still a sense of, like,
people have, like, this one message that they're, like, really going hard about, or, like, there are people who are, like, a little bit too enthusiastic for me.
[laughs] And I'm like, "Maybe I'm just mm, I gotta work on my positivity-" Debbie Downer over here. [laughs]... but, like, I... You know, it's just like that, I'm like, where, what's the authentic, like- Right.
Who are you? Yeah. I mean, like, yesterday it was pouring rain and I w- [laughs] I posted on Instagram like, [laughs] "I don't know who these people are-" [laughs] "... pretending like they like to go out in this shit."
[laughs] I like this. [laughs] I was like, "I don't like running in this. This is terrible." [laughs] And it's like, that's real. Like, I wanna know- Yeah... that people are, the people I follow are human. Yeah.
Like, that's how you connect with other people is, like, knowing that you aren't alone and that you do share experience. Definitely.
Um, so one of the things you also, you just mentioned was that you run all surfaces, all distances, uh, really from nothing to 100- Don't say 5K- 100 mile... I don't know what 5K is. [laughs] Yeah.
[laughs] We can get into that. Um,
we were ta- I, I was sharing that I was having some indecisiveness around, uh, road versus trail, and like, I'm feeling good on the road, but is that just 'cause things are going well or whatnot?
And you had some really good advice around, um, you know, where, what to focus on. Do you wanna, do you wanna share that with- [laughs]... share that with the class here? [laughs] Yeah. Um, so
I, as most people know, I kind of go between... Like, I just ran my second fastest marathon, and I'm still targeting another fast marathon, but I love the trails. Like, I, in the beginning of 2016,
uh, I, I ran Houston then, and I, um, was kind of over, like I had reached that point that you kind of alluded to. Like, you don't wanna go, you don't wanna burn yourself out. Yeah. And I, like, I had been training
while doing the bakery, like, trying to run a fast marathon. Didn't work out, and I w- realized that I was burnt out on it. So I was like, "You know what? I'm gonna change gears.
I feel like I'm gonna go back to the 100 mile distance." And I, what I have found for me is that I will follow that interest until I'm not interested anymore.
Like, I did Leadville in 2017, and after that I was kinda like, well, granted, I had foot surgery, so I wasn't like- [laughs]... "Hey, let's go run another 100."
But coming off of that, I realized I felt satisfied with what I had done at that distance. And instead of being like, "I am not..."
Like, I don't feel like I have to make these pronouncements of like, "And no, I'm going this direction." Right. It's just like- Just do what- It's I just do it... do you, yeah Right?
And I, I have become better over the years with trying to find that, that sweet spot where I can s- like, I know the signs now where I'm, like, the, where I start beating my head against- Right...
the wall, and it's- Throw your watch out the window and... [laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Exactly. And, and I start getting frustrated. Yep. Um, where, like, essentially my mind and body is telling me that I am ready to change.
But I also tend to train in a way that, you know, we were talking about this earlier, like, it's about training fitness- Right... versus- Specificity... sp- specificity. Yeah. Like, I have run my best
tr- I, I, I mean, I ran a 14:50 200-miler off of marathon training. Like, literally no specific trail training.
So like, I know that m- my level, like, the fitness that I can, my best fitness is gonna translate into whatever- Right... race I do. Whatever arena, yeah. And so I think that that
is just kinda something I keep in mind, and, you know, what I was telling you is like, do the road training, you know, r- run road races until you don't want to run on a road. Run out of road.
Yeah, until you run out of road, and then, you know, run on the trail until you- Turn around and run back. [laughs] And it's like,
I, I think that it's, I think a lot of people think that they're so vastly different, and I honestly feel like-When you know yourself and how you train, like, to be your most fit, like, ultimately, like, the race objective, like, that part doesn't matter, you know?
And- So let's get into that. Um, there's been a lot of talk about, like, why do we race? What, what's the, um, what, where does the, where does the passion come from? What's the why?
Um, do you, do you enjoy the training more? Do you enjoy the racing more? Or is it a, is it a balance? Mm. It's both. Yeah. Uh, I mean, I really...
I pick goals, like, my, my A goals, you know, like, if you were to look at my schedule this year, you would be like, "Wow-" [laughs] "... that's a lot of things."
But, like, my A goals are essentially how I route the process. So for instance, Houston, my goal was to run a PR. Um- Which is something you control. It's not a podium spot. It's not a- Exactly.
And it, a- and so on, I trained to, like, the, I wanted to put myself in the position to be fit enough to run that on the day, and it wasn't the type of day that was a PR day. And I, but- And you got close...
and I got really close, and I ran, like, I had somebody be like, "Oh, I'm so sorry," after the fact, and I was like, "I'm stoked." [laughs] A 2:39 marathon. [laughs] I ran, I ran the race I wanted to. Yeah. Right?
Like, I ran. I felt the way I wanted to. I raced the way I wanted to. Like, I stayed on it. Like, I didn't, I never, I didn't have negative thoughts. I just raced. Hammered. Yeah. I raced my ass off. And, like, it,
it was satisfying because I went into that race knowing I had done everything, like dialed every little detail towards that goal, and I put everything into it. And so I, I was kinda sad that the race was there.
[laughs] I mean, I wasn't sad because, you know, it's all satisfying, but, like, I, I do enjoy the specific stimulus of the race, and that's why I'm, like, a frequent racer.
But I have also, like, this block for Houston actually showed me, 'cause that was coming off of doing four races in six weeks, including World Championship 100K, a half-marathon, and two marathons.
And those, while satisfying, like, to achieve, like, the finish line, I didn't race that well, right? And so it wasn't as satisfying as, like, doing this whole process and setting everything up. So I definitely feel like
I enjoy the work itself. Um, not, like, I still love to race, but, like, the work itself is where I kind of really thrive and get a lot of my stoke from, like, seeing myself improve or work towards a goal. I love it.
So you've been running for a couple years now. Uh, what are some of the, the biggest changes you've seen, um, in the running world? Yeah, I mean,
when I first started ultrarunning, it was, you know, a bunch of weirdos running around in the woods. I think it still is.
[laughs] I mean, it still is, but there was no social me- there was no really- Now there's just more weirdos and talking about it Yeah, now you're like- And everybody's got a podcast... weirdos with drones and podcasts.
[laughs] Okay? Um, and social media.
I think, you know, the, the rise in the sponsorship thing, um, kind of around the time that we started doing the bakery, like, that, when the Salomon team first came out, that was kind of like the first push you saw with, like, a big squad, and other teams kinda followed suit.
Um, and you also saw, like, the rise in, like, these really cool movie, like, short films- Yeah... and stuff like that. Um, but, you know, it was still a super niche sport. I think one of the things that happened over
the last couple years that has been, mm, interesting and somewhat vexing to me was this idea that is kind of counter to ultrarunning in my mind, which, to me, ultrarunning's always been about community and, like,
we're all going towards the same finish line. Like, whether or not you're first or last, like, getting to a finish line is an amazing thing, right? Like, I have mad respect for anybody who's out there. And
with the rise in sponsorship and, like, some people coming in from other sports, you see this kind of thing where it's like
there's more of this, like, hierarchy or people trying to prove, like, their own greatness, and I'm like, we're, like, the reason I came into ultrarunning is because
one course to the next course, the same course is, it's, you can't compare these things, right?
Like, how are you gonna compare people who are, one person's running on the road, one person's running up a mountain, the next one's, like, climbing over rocks?
Like, you can't, like, that is, is not really a part of the sport. Right. And you've seen that come into the sport a little bit. Um, and I think that the community aspect is kind of more the most important. Mm-hmm.
Um, and I have seen a swing back in the last couple years with, um, especially on the women's side, like, women being outspoken towards supporting one another, which is really cool, and kind of seeing that going back to the community aspect, but that was the biggest thing that I saw kind of in the last five years where I was like, "Ooh, I don't wanna see this become, like,
that way where, like, we feel like we're fighting with each other for, like, this-" Right, piece of the pie. Yeah, this piece of the pie. Like, it's like we can all be great. Right.
Like, anybody makes this finish line is great. Yeah. Like, it doesn't, you don't need to be the greatest. Like, there is no greatest of all time. Like, every- Except Tom Brady. [laughs] I have no comment.
I don't watch football. [laughs] So, um, okay, community. Let's, let's talk about, let's talk about the Donner Dinner Party- [laughs]...
because that was, like, the most, uh, the biggest outpouring of community I've ever seen anywhere, probably ever will see. Yeah.
So, um-Two years ago, you put together some efforts to raise money for the California fire relief, and you were collecting donations, uh, and, and that money went to support people that needed it and that you were collecting, uh, articles of clothing and shoes and all that good stuff.
Um,
2018 comes around, uh, North Face California's canceled, whole bunch of people are trying to run their first 50K, marathon, et cetera, um, people are just trying to breathe, uh, the air in San Francisco was pretty crappy.
You were out in Tahoe, um, training, breathing, all that good stuff, and, um, we headed out there. And, and our friend Tristan said, "Let's, you know, let's show off some trails."
Uh, and so you jumped at the opportunity to, to, to give back and to, um, show off some trails and, and show a bunch of these yahoos running around in the woods. [laughs] You know, a good time. Yeah.
[laughs] And, and it was the coolest thing in the world. And, and so we had 50 people show up, um, at Donner, uh, Donner Peak, Donner Summit, whatever, and we ran a whole bunch of miles in the woods and...
Talk to me about that. [laughs] What was that like? What was that like on the other side? Yeah, it was...
When, [laughs] when you texted me that you were gonna still come out and that this was happening, like, it just so goes to the, like, the heart of ultrarunning, which is like, yeah, you have this disappointing thing where you're like, "I trained for this.
This is the race I wanted to do," but you made, like, s- you kind of took the essence of what the point was and then put it out in a place that was, you know, safer to, uh, to be.
And so for me, it was really fun, um, to be out there all day. Like, you know, I joked that I brought, like, the best of. You know, I got- [laughs]... like, Coke, um- That Coke was the best Coke- M&M...
I've ever tasted in my life. [laughs] Um, [laughs]
potato chips, and like, I just, you know, stood at the turnaround and like- [laughs] You know, it was cool because, like, especially in that way where everybody was just so happy to be out there and to have an opportunity to do something, and like, it kind of made the best out of a, a bad situation.
And like, there was also, like, the inevitable, like, super funny, this is so ultrarunning things, like when you called me that you had, you guys had run- [laughs]...
the wrong direction on the course and you had no idea where you were, and I, and I had to go find you, and you're outta water, and like- [laughs] I... It was just so great.
Like, it was just so great to kind of be able to support other people doing this special thing, and like, to see you guys, like, get
the, like, the full ultra- I call it, like, the, the full ultrarunning experience- [laughs]... right? Like, it got lost. [laughs] So it went wrong. I ran out of fuel. [laughs] We ran out of fuel, ran out of water.
Like, that to me is just, like, to be a part of that is really what it's about. And like, a lot of times when I'm racing for myself, I don't necessarily have the opportunity to be a part of that aspect. Um,
and with, you know, foot injury and illness and all this kind of stuff, like, the...
And even doing the bakery, like, I don't, I haven't had the opportunity to engage with the community in the way that I necessarily did in my earlier years. Right.
And so it was just, like, an opportunity for me to be a part of, like, the, like, the love of the sport. Yeah. Um, and so it was really fun.
Yeah, I mean, I've made it very clear that, like, you've, your, your story, your journey has, has pushed me to explore limits, explore boundaries, and things like that.
And, um, I remember texting you last year when I was trying to decide between doing the 50K or the marathon as, as my first longer trail race. You were like, "You're texting me- Mm-hmm... asking this?
You know the answer to this. [laughs] You, you know what you're gonna do.
And so then to have you there for my first 50K, it was like, okay, if anything goes wrong, Devon knows what to do, and things went wrong, and you knew what to do.
And it was, it was so cool to, you know, see you every five miles with, you know, all these snacks, and we would, we would shoot the shit for a couple minutes and then you'd say, "Okay, now get outta here."
[laughs] And five, five, five to seven miles later, we'd repeat that until we got lost.
Um, and I will just, I mean, the, the cover photo of, of this podcast is, is the last, you know, five strides of that, of that day, and that's a moment that I'll remember forever.
I was running with Brian Brussel, who's, um, who's a- another really cool trail runner, and, um, he looks at me at mile 29, he's like, "John, I've got a problem." I was like, "Oh, this is bad." [laughs] Like, I'm...
We're like seven hours into this thing, um, still needing to summit and then come back down. And so, like, I, I wasn't sure what he was gonna say, and he's like, "I can't stop smiling."
[laughs] And I was like, "You know what, man? I can't either." And we ran straight up a mountain to 8,500 feet, and, uh, in that moment I was on top of the world. Yeah.
And we took our photos of, you know, overlooking Donner Lake, and I'll remember that for the rest of my life. And, and then hitting that, like, flow state on the way down, like, I could do this all fucking day. Yeah.
I can just keep going. But then, you know, we, we got, we got to the finish line and- Yeah. [laughs]... my legs decided it was the end of the day. [laughs] Um, and then we had the worst nachos I've ever had in my life.
Oh. It was horribly unsatisfying. Um, but anyways, so that was the, that was the coolest, like... I was, I was explaining it, I think I was talking to the Ginger Runner podcast afterwards and, and what I said,
Ginger Runner Live, and what I said was, um, it was not the, it was not the experience that I was expecting, but it was way, way more than I could have ever imagined. Yeah.
And I think, you know, the cool thing aboutLike being at that level of fitness where you're like, "I can go run 50K." Yeah. Like, I feel like, like I, I believe I can do that. Like, I'm not gonna die. Right.
I'm gonna g- you know, I'm gonna get lost, but I'm probably gonna be found. Right. But like, the experiences- Well, it was Donner Party- It was... so it may, may have been eaten Somebody m- may have g- eaten your leg.
[laughs] Uh- Shout out to Jenny. [laughs] You know, but like, for me, the most amazing moments that are afforded by being an ultra runner have actually not been races. Um, I have done some things,
some things with friends, some things with my husband, you know, where I'm like, "Look where I get to be," you know? Like, I ran from Tuolumne Meadows in Yosemite. I ran to, uh, Devil's Postpile, which is in Mammoth,
and it was, I don't know, 30 some odd mile, 35, I don't even remem- remember at this point. And like, I just remember, like being way out there and being like, "I got here by myself."
[laughs] Like, there's these people who've been... Like, you see people who are, like, hiked for five days. This car drove Mount Washington.
[laughs] These people, you see people out there and, and they're like, "How did you get here?" [laughs] And you're like, "How are you?" And they're like, "When did you start?" I'm like, "Two hours ago."
[laughs] And they're like, they can't conceptualize it. Yeah. And it's just such a special thing to do, and you get to the end and, like, literally, like, Nathan ran up to meet me,
and we're coming down to the end, and I'm like, done. You know, I had a good cry on a log- [laughs]... 'cause I was like, just done.
And we're, we're going along and I'm like running down this road, and I don't see our campsite anywhere. And then all of a sudden, like, Nathan just dives in the bushes and there's our truck.
And he was like- [laughs] "This great, epic adventure has just come to an end." Is now over. [laughs] And I was like, "Okay." You know, it's like, that's- Lunchtime.
[laughs] Yeah, it was literally like, "Where are the chips?" [laughs] Um, but I think that, that it's like the unexpected adventures to me are the ones that have,
I don't know, a, a greater depth, and like your ability to connect with other people through those things. You know, it's like,
yeah, we, like, I did, uh, uh, way back in the day before any o- of you guys were out of high school, um, Chrissy and I, [laughs] Chrissy Mayo and I r- ran the Grand Canyon FKT.
Um, and like, for me, that was an, an amazing experience because of like what we went to, through together, um, and like how she supported me when I was having a really hard time because I had run 100K on the road six days before we tried to do that- [laughs]...
which is, FYI, not a great idea. Um, but like when we got to- Not optimal...
you know, we got the record, but it was like, it was more about like what we had done together and with, you know, this group of people that had supported us that was really amazing.
And I think that that, you know, to the Donner Dinner Party- [laughs]...
like, it kind of is the same thing where it's like, look what we're able to do for a bunch of people together, um, in the, you know, the very essence of this sport. Yeah, it was... Totally agree.
One of the themes that has been consistent through the interviews I've done, so the, the millions of interviews I've done so far in this podcast- [laughs]...
with the tens of millions of listeners, um, has been the, the highlighting of the process versus the, the outcome, and Ben Rosario was very specific about this, and to say like, "We don't talk about time, and we don't talk about, you know, whatever.
If you do the work, if you enjoy the, the journey, uh, the results, the results will come." Um, what's your take on the, the, the process versus, um, you know, tangible results?
And, and more importantly, what can people do to, um, get back to loving, loving the process? Yeah, I mean, I definitely have had periods of time when I have got it wrong.
Um, and the biggest example of that was, um, I qualified for the tr- the Olympic trials in the marathon, uh, and ran it in 2012. That's where my marathon PR is.
And after that, I just kinda was like, "Okay, now I can run..." Like, I ran a 238 at the end of January 2012, and then I ran a 239 like two months later.
I was like, "All right," like, "This is just who I am, so I'm just gonna, like, keep on keeping on." And I started to identif- I had gotten there because I was
trying to go from somebody who had run, like, I think my PR going into trying to qualify for the trials was a 249, so I had to run a sub-245, and I wanted to see the process of becoming that type of runner.
But once I had achieved it, then I kinda was like, "Well, this is... I should just be able to go faster." Right. But, you know, talking about- Take off another 12 minutes- Yeah, exactly... 15 minutes.
Like what we were talking about earlier, like, I didn't s- see the signs that I was, like, starting to attach to the results. Right.
And so it's funny, because the harder I attached the results, the slower I became, because I would get into a race and I would be like, "Six-minute pace should feel easy." Right.
I don't know, six-minute pace, FYI, is never gonna feel easy- [laughs]... like, to anybody on the face of the earth. Unless you're on rollerblades. [laughs] Yeah, or when you're driving really slowly.
Um, you know, and so [laughs] it, uh, was, like I... And so I would have this mental process where I just essentially put this block in my way because I was attaching to the result.
So I ended up deciding to pursue other, like I wanted to go the other direction, and I, you know, signed up to do Western States, and I finally felt compelled to go after that goal after kind of putting hundreds aside for a while.
And so I started essentially a new process, where it's like I had built myself into a fast marathoner, and then when I started to bang my head against that wall, I was like, "Okay, I need to change the direction," like, "I need to find a different way to essentially guide the process."
And so now I see when I'm choosing a goal, like, when I really ask myself, likeAm I really excited about this? Or like I know if I signed up for a race and I'm just kinda like, "I just wanna look good," right?
Like there, there, I can- [laughs] There are races- So 5Ks or 4... that's what vi- I, I don't know, I don't know what a 5K is. I'm kidding. You know? [laughs] Like, but you know, it's like where
if I'm looking at the race and I'm just really caring about how I perform in that race specifically versus like looking at the process- Longer picture... it, it's like- Bigger picture... yeah, where it's like
going into Houston, like yeah, I wanted a PR, but I want to do...
I know that that is just one opportunity for me to achieve this, and that the process might be longer than that, and it has been longer than that, but I'm still excited because I still see myself working towards that goal.
And so I think honestly, like rooting yourself in the process is a healthier way to be because like, yeah, races, you, you can only control the controllables. Right. Like, you are not...
It, it's like if you say, "I wanna go win a race," well, you know what? You, you don't know who's gonna show up.
Like I'm, I'm running a half marathon on, uh, on Sunday, and it was funny, like the race was interviewing me, and I was like, "I wanna run fast." Ultra runner, fast. [laughs] Like, and like I'm not, like I...
A- and it was funny because like I'm like it could be nobody shows up and I could win in a time that's only ultra running fast for a half marathon. [laughs] It's like, but I don't have control over that. Right.
And so my goal for- Be the best... is to run the best- On your best, yeah... that I can, and then like wherever that puts me, that, that is going to be, if I run
to the fitness level that I'm at, like then I will be, and I execute, and I don't self-sabotage, and I, you know, enjoy myself, that's more important than the ra- the race itself. I think a lot of
people in the sport of running get really obsessed with like the end result, but you know, you're, it's like that's one moment of like one day, and what about all the other days that you put into it?
Like, that should be where you're living and should be your enjoyment. Like, are you getting stoked, uh, like when you, you like nail a workout for the first time?
But at the same time, like you shouldn't be devastated when a workout doesn't go the way it sh- you know, you want it to. It should just be part of the process- Right... that each- Ups and downs...
thing is a, is like you're building this, you're building a house brick by brick. Yep. Yeah, I had a coach that, that, that was, that was the analogy.
It was like every day is a, is a small brick in the temple that you're building. Yeah. And, uh, one of the things that I have found myself recognizing is in training, um, is if I
have a sense of like in, if I do a workout and I have this like home run mentality, then I often find that that's like one of my warning signs that I'm attached to the outcome because I'm like, "Oh, look. Ding.
Checked that box." Like, if I can do this in the workout, then the outcome is guaranteed. But it's a, it's a tough line because like you wanna be your own cheerleader, and like
you wanna celebrate when the workouts are going well and things like that. So how do you, how do you like walk that line, run that line?
Um, because it's the sense of, um, and I found this in Houston, is that I had a lot of workouts that were like scary to me. Yeah. You know, like 15 miles in marathon pace- [laughs]...
like in the middle of 100 mile a week. I'm like, "No." [laughs] At altitude. [laughs] Like the day- Running with your legs tied together... the, the, the day after Christmas. [laughs] Thanks, coach.
Um, and like in the past it was like I, part of it is like I was actually giving myself a long enough training block to week in and week out I was facing down scary workouts.
So it was like I'm celebrating each one of these, but I'm not saying that like this is the one. That's the one, yeah. There, I was giving myself essentially more opportunities to see the consistency- Yeah... and like,
you know, like you- Celebrate it... yeah, to celebrate it, where it was like instead of being like I just knocked it outta the park home run mentality, it was like I'm so satisfied. Yeah.
Like I'm happy, and I'm very proud of myself, but it wasn't this false sense of like...
It's like it was more like, and I, tomorrow, not tomorrow obviously, tomorrow, the next day would be a rest day, but like this is how I'm doing this work. Cool. Um,
let's talk about like what tips do you have for someone that's looking to, to get after a new distance? Um, I am a very big believer in building an endurance base.
Like I don't, I don't think everybody needs to run the same amount of mileage, but I, it, uh, [laughs] it's kind of funny. It's like it's really, I, I have like a really unsexy mentality about work.
It's just like you need to be efficient and have good running economy before you can go onto anything else. Yeah. So it's like- But it's like it's the unsexy things that like that, that work. Yeah. Like sleep. Exactly.
It's like I, I tend to, so I have recently started coaching, um, runners and, uh, you know, just getting into that, and I am all about like building the base. And like I am not... You know, a lot of
the mentality like out there in the world, you know, you read things on social media, and it's all about hacking this, and, you know, short-cutting that, and I'm like, "Nope. There's none of that."
[laughs] Like just- We're just gonna run a bunch of miles- We're really like-... eat and sleep. [laughs] Yeah.
It's like you wanna run a, like moving up in distance, it's like okay, like it's about preparing your body for w- what it's gonna take.
So it's like working towards just being able to do the volume and not, it's not about like I'm not gonna send somebody out to do track workouts when they can't even run like 40 miles in a week. Right. Right?
Like I don't think you need to run 120 miles in a week, but you should be able to-Run a cer- like your own personal, like idea of volume.
Like you should be able to maintain that healthfully before you start adding in all the- Yeah... bells and whistles and everything else. Like you have to, it's like anything, like right.
Uh, I did- Keep it simple, stupid. Well, yeah, [laughs] and it's... I did this nutrition certification recently, and like,
you know, it talked about how to, how to help clients, and one of the things that they said is like
most people don't need like all, they don't need intermittent fasting, they don't need nutrient timing, they don't need to be weighing their food.
Like they can't do fundamental things [laughs] like drink enough water, eat enough protein, go to bed on time. Like it's mind-blowing. Like so just focusing on those things is how I see...
And not like, especially when it comes to changing distances, like it's about being patient, but also not like thinking that there's this secret thing you have to do.
Like a lot of people think if you're gonna run 50 or 100 miles that you have to run high mileage, and you don't. You just need to prepare for it in a methodical way. Cool.
What were you thinking about on the start line of your first 100? What have I done? [laughs] No, it's a question that I love asking.
Um, I was out in, at Western States, and I was asking people, like what, what are you gonna think about tomorrow when you stand out there? I mean, it's one of those things where you,
I often at the beginning of 100 am just thinking about not thinking about the finish line.
Like I'm thinking about what do I need to do in this, like in the time between now and like when I see my crew for the first time, like how do, what does execution look like in this piece of time?
Because if you stand there on the start line of 100 miles and like are thinking about the finish line, you- You're fucked... will put your coat back on- [laughs]... and go back to the car [laughs] and run away.
[laughs] So I just, I try to kind of just think about it in the way that I've broken down the race. So like at Leadville,
I was like, okay, all I'm thinking about is I'm out here for, I ended up running with, uh, two friends who are local, from San Francisco, and we were like, "It's just an SFRC Saturday run."
[laughs] Like we're running, it's 4:00 AM, like we're just running through the dark, being conversational, keeping it together. Like you're not thinking about anything else.
And then, you know, and I had done so much training on the course that I was like this is the section- This is another run, yeah... this is how I run this, and this is what I do, and that's all that I think about. Cool.
Um, maybe the last question. What gets you really excited? In life? Yeah. [laughs] I was gonna say food. [laughs] That's fair. That, that's life. You eat, you eat food in life. Food, running, Schnauzer puppies.
Um, my husband and I are currently obsessed with Schnauzers. Um- Nice... we don't have one, but we really want one. Um- "Hi, can I pet your dog" is a very common word, very common phrase in my vocabulary.
Uh, I mean, I, people tie their dogs up outside the bakery and I'm just like, "I get to pet you." [laughs] Um, I don't know. I feel like over the last several years, I don't know, maybe it's age. I'm so old now.
Um, I'm 36. I was gonna say I'm 37. Check that, yeah. [laughs] But I'm not actually 37 yet. You're aging yourself. Uh, it's everybody else is old- uh, that I know is older than me, so it always confuses me.
[laughs] Uh, I've just kind of gotten to a place where I have like simple enjoyment in more things. You know? Like I have realized that like a lot of the...
Somebody asked me, like, "What was the, the best moment in my running career?" And I was like there's not like a s- like I can't think of a single, I've done 100 races now. Yeah.
Like I, I was like, ooh, all these things that I thought were gonna be super satisfying and like life-changing ended up just being like a part of the story.
So at this point, I tend to find enjoyment in like simpler things, you know? And like trying to have, instead of being like I'll... You know, a lot of people have that like I'll be happy when mentality. Yeah.
It's like how about I just have like daily enjoyment and satisfaction, you know, like petting puppies or like eating a really good bakgood from my bakery. [laughs] Like, you know? Like it's that kind of thing- Nice...
where you just find that kind of more like a, a better type of satisfaction. Cool. Last question, I promise. Where can we find the bakery, and then where can we find your Instagram?
Uh, the bakery is MH Bread & Butter, which is San Anselmo, California, which you're just gonna have to look that up since I know you don't know where that is. [laughs] Nor- it's in Marin.
Um, and I'm on Instagram, it's fastfoodie. Cool. It's my whatever name- Handle... handle. Handle. Call sign. Call sign. I just watched Top Gun, so it's actually call sign. Oh, it's a call sign. Oh. Yeah. [laughs] Yeah.
Awesome. Well, thanks so much, Devon. Uh, this was a blast and, uh, we'll see you on the trails. Thanks for having me. Of course. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end.
I hope you join in next week on For The Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails. If you've enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too.