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[upbeat music] I think about that with Stanley, too, some days. It's like, "Why am I doing this, and what am I trying to teach him?" You know, a lot of it is work hard, and how do you deal with failure?

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Like, I've had a lot of failure over the last five years and, you know, am I going home, and am I crying and curling up in a ball and not, you know, just, like, never experiencing the world and giving up?

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You know, yes, I probably cry when I have a bad race, but I continue on, and I try to improve, and I say, "Where have I gone wrong, and, and what can I improve?"

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Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated. I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt.

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Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspect of running, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy.

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[upbeat music] Imagine a world where running injuries don't exist, and every runner stays healthy.

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That's the world I wanna live in, and that's exactly the world that Recover Athletics wants to make happen. Recover is the first prehab app for runners.

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It instantly generates custom prehab programs made up of strength, plyometric, and mobility exercises to help loosen tight muscles, get stronger, and run your best.

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Their team designed it with top physicians and marathoners like me. It's guaranteed to make you a stronger and more injury-proof runner.

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If you wanna fix your aches and pains, get stronger, and set PRs, go to the App Store right now and download the Recover Athletics app today.

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[upbeat music] Thank you to Tracksmith for their support of For The Long Run podcast.

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Tracksmith is a Boston-based running apparel brand born from a desire to celebrate both the history and the evolving culture of running.

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Tracksmith recently released their fall collection, which was designed to celebrate the seasonal shifts as we find our rhythm this fall.

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I have been loving their Van Cortlandt long sleeve, which pairs well with the Allston half tights on a brisk fall day.

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[upbeat music] Welcome back.

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I'm here in Boulder, Colorado, with Gwen Jorgensen. Hey. Gwen, thanks so much for taking some time to chat. Yeah, I'm excited to be here.

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You asked me to do this a long time ago, and I, uh, gave you Pat instead, but I'm finally here.

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[laughs] Pat and I had a great conversation about sports business and being an agent and social media and the Olympics, but I'm excited to have you on here.

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Yes, um, he's a much better talker than I am, but I'm excited to be here as well. We'll see. We'll see. We'll have to do a vote. [laughs] So the first question, as I alluded to, is always a tough one. Who is Gwen?

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Um- I always ask people, "Who is Gwen?" And- Yeah, I told... You told me- [laughs] I s- I told you I don't really listen to your podcast, so this is, uh, I don't listen to any podcasts. This is a surprise question.

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I am a mom. I have a four-year-old son. I am someone who I don't like to say, when I say who I am, I don't like to say I'm an athlete even though that's what I am. I just think of someone, someone who...

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I'm a very family-oriented person. I like to try new foods. I like to spend time with family, and, uh, that's who I am. I also like to run on the side. And swim and bike. Uh- [laughs] Or to be determined. Yes.

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I don't know if anybody likes to swim. [laughs] Um, so how come you don't answer that you're an athlete when people ask what you do?

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I think it stems back from high school, and in high school, I was really into swimming, and I associated myself as a swimmer, and that's all I thought I was, and I put all my self-worth into swimming.

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And very quickly as an athlete, you realize that doesn't work. And when I was in high school, you know, if a practice went bad, if a meet went bad, I'd be devastated for weeks, and it impacted my mood.

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It impacted how I interacted with people. And so, yeah, I've learned that that can't be my identity, and so I don't like to say that's what I am.

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I think that's awesome, and it's one of the reasons I like asking this question because I find that so many people answer the way that you did, even if they're professional athletes.

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So through work, I get to meet a lot of professional athletes and Olympians and people who have won medals and all this stuff. And my dad made a comment the other day like, "Oh, your level of access is, is insane."

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[laughs] And I'm just like, "No, these are just normal people who are exceptional at being consistent at something." And I think that's exactly it. Like, we are normal people if you get to know us. Right.

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And Jonathan, I've run with you a ton now. Like, you know me. Like, I'm just a normal person. Right. And so I think, well, I know that that's, like, a misconception with people who see professional athletes as, like...

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I mean, we're all special in our own ways, but I, I think that, like- That's what I tell my son, yes. Yes. Well, Stanley is very special. Yes.

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[laughs] No, but I think it's a fascinating reflection, particularly because I've seen, I don't know now, 50 athletes who are professional, and they're paid to compete answer, "I'm a dog mom.

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I'm a, a dad of two," like, stuff like that, that is more about them as a human versus, like, what they can do with their legs or their arms or their body. Yeah.

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You know, the other side of that as well is you're just talking about, like, what we can do with our bodies, and as a professional athlete, I know that any day my career could be over.

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Something could happen, some freak accident, and you could never be able to run again. And so, you know, there has to be more than just being an athlete.

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Is that intentional gratitude something that you practice, or is that just present with you?

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You know, I think I practiced it a lot in high school, college, a little bit after college, and I feel like now it's just so ingrained in me that it's more of just a daily thing that occurs without me even thinking about it.

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I think that's powerful. It's one of those things that, like, when you can't do it or when things get hard or something like that, it's the, like-But I get to do this. Or when you don't wanna do a session- [laughs]...

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you get to do it. I did a podcast with Mike Wardian in 2019 ahead of Western States, so maybe it was 2018. Anyway, a question I was asking a lot at the time was, what are you afraid of?

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And I asked this to Mike, and Mike had raced 1,600 miles the year prior, so like many more miles than many people run in a year. And I was like, "Why do you do this? Why do you race so much? Why do you run so much?"

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And he was like, "Any day it could be gone." Yeah. "I want to do what I love while I can, because I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and that's the end of it."

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That's exactly it, and I think anyone who's ever been injured knows that feeling as well.

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When you come back, you know, there's days that are hard, it's crappy outside, you're tired, you don't wanna go and do it, but you appreciate it so much just because you're able to. Right.

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So you're wearing a Barrerman Track Club shirt. You have been focused on running for a while. You've also been quite successful at triathlon.

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So normally I frame the For the Long Run Podcast with talking about your first run, or do you remember your first run? I'm gonna instead ask about your first swim. Do you remember your first swim? Ooh, uh, my first swim.

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No. I'm gonna guess it was... My grandma had a pool growing up, and my mom always tells stories about how she couldn't get me out of the water.

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Like, I'd beg to go there every day in the summer and I'd swim, and I guess my mom and dad actually signed me up for a swim team because they thought I'd get sick of it, and they thought I wouldn't like the pool, and it just turned into this opposite thing, but I mean, I started swimming competitively at, like, age seven.

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So I was in the water pretty early. And at what point did you realize you were pretty good at it? Huh. You know, I never thought I was great at swimming.

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I remember being little, like, grade school and having dreams of going to the Olympics and swimming, but by middle school it was very clear to me that I wasn't ever gonna be at that caliber in swimming.

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Like, I never made a junior national team. I struggled to make state. You know, I ended up winning state, club state, but never in high school. I didn't win, like, high school state.

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I performed better running than I did swimming in high school. And so where did the- where did the running come in, or how did the running come in? Oh.

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The running, you know, I started to go to some running camps because my sister ran, and it was, you know, easier for our family, for everyone just goes to running camp at the same time- Right...

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and we drop you guys off, pick you up. And I wasn't gonna run in high school, but my sister's coach in high school said, "Who's that girl?" And my sister said, "Oh, that's my sister."

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And he said, "Uh, she looks like a runner. Can we get her to run?" And his name was Eric Layman, high school coach, and he, he basically, like, begged me to do it and I said, "Absolutely not. I'm swimming."

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And so he said, "Okay. Well, just go to swim practice every day, and you can just come to the track meets." And I did that and was super successful.

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My first year running in high school I was on the podium, um, whereas in swimming I never was.

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So I have a lot to owe to him, and I actually think back to that a lot now just with this day and age and how we really try to get kids to specify what they're gonna do early on, and we get them to, like, you know, if you're gonna do whatever it is, soccer or tennis, you have to do it every day, and that's the only thing you can do, and I'm just so grateful that I had coaches who let me do more than one sport, and I think it really allowed me to become the athlete I've become and allowed me to also have a long career.

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I was running with Kara yesterday and she was telling me about her son Colt- Yep... and, and the running that he was doing. I saw him... A side note, I saw him at the skate park the other day.

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He was on his little scooter- [laughs]... doing tricks. Anyway. That's awesome. Yes. Um, so Kara was saying that she spoke with the coach and was like, "Yeah, Colt's not running more than two days a week."

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And Colt was like, "I wanna, you know, run under six in the mile in a 2K and, you know, or a 3K." And the coach was like, "Oh, if you run Saturdays, you'll podium."

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And Kara was reflecting on the, like, boulder parents and, like, how there are kids running, like, 30 miles a week when they're 11 years old.

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[laughs] And we were talking about the, like, the program that this develops, and it's like you might get one unicorn who, like, continues to run in high school, and the rest just, like, burn out.

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And so we're seeing so much in today's day and age about, like, multi-sport athletes, and I don't mean triathlon, but- Yes... you know what I mean.

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Being successful and, and I think it's really cool to hear someone like yourself reflecting on the fact that you were a multi-sport athlete, and so many years later you're still doing it.

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We were talking about, like, how we're trying to develop, like, a love of the sport for life versus, like, being a really good 11-year-old. [laughs] Like, who cares if you're a really good 11-year-old?

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Yeah, and the thing is when you're 11, you're gonna go through bouts where you're really bad and you have regressions, and that's hard to take mentally if you're only focused on that one thing.

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And so if you have this wider cast of things you can do, um, I just think it gives you more balance. And then, like you said, you don't have that burnout because it's not just like, "Oh, man, I just got worse."

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Like, when you're 11, you expect for every race to be your best race, and that can happen for a while, but there's a point when it's not, and you have to be able to somehow swallow that and be able to move on, and that's the only way, I think, your love for the sport continues.

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So Stanley's four? That's right. And he is adventurous on the bike- Yes... it looks like. Too adventurous for my likings. [laughs] Yes. And I see him running around.

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I, I don't know if it's running, but- No, he loves running... he's running around. Yes. Where does his love of sports come from? [laughs] I don't know. You know, he, he definitely...

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I was actually just today, he was playing tennis, and I was like, "I need to get you some tennis lessons," 'cause he was crying when I said we had to stop.

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We had played for, like, an hour and a half, and I'm- [laughs]... just like, "Okay, this is enough. [laughs] Like, let's move on." So he just has this love for all sports, and when he was younger...

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You know, Pat loves cycling, and so he always kind of wanted to, like, he had this image of him and Stanley riding, and now he gets that every day. Mm-hmm. Stanley and him ride to school every day.

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And Pat would take him to the bike park-And Stan would not touch his bike. He would just run all the bumps. [laughs] And he thought it was so funny.

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It was like this little, like, cross-country course for him, and he loved the ups and downs. And Pat would always come home and just be like, "Well, you know, he's your son. He loves running."

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[laughs] So I don't know if it's him just seeing me and Pat, like, every day running or riding bikes or whatever it is, being active, but there's a little bit more to it because he definitely loves just, he loves sports.

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Very cool. It sounds like he's having fun doing it. He is having so much fun doing it, yes, and everything's always a race.

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My mother-in-law's like, "You gotta stop making things races," and I'm like, "You're right, but he's the one that makes them a race." [laughs] Um, that's awesome.

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So speaking of fun, can you tell the listeners what your prescribed run was on Sunday? [laughs] Yes.

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So I ran with Jonathan on Sunday, and actually, well, Patrick reached out to you, but he said, "Gwen has, like, a 75-minute run. It has to be fun." And so I just had 75 minutes, and it just said, "But must be fun."

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That was from Bobby McGee, my current running coach. So yeah, we- you took me to a really awesome Walker Ranch loop. Is that what it was called? Yep.

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And just some trail running, a little bit of hiking in there, but it was just super fun, refreshing, and I've been doing a lot more runs like that for my easy days where I just don't even care what pace I go, but it's just all about, you know, time on feet and actually enjoying what I'm doing.

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If Gwen of 2015, '16, '17 saw that as your Sunday, what would she have said? [laughs] That's a good question. Um, I feel like I morph as an athlete every year, and there's things that I focus on and enjoy.

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You know, in, in 2017, I was pretty, uh, I had a, a lot of pain every day from an Achilles thing that I was running through, and so no run was really enjoyable.

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But yeah, I mean, I think, you know, just making it fun is something that, it increases the longevity of doing the sport. And I don't know. That's a good question. I don't know what I would think back then.

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I think it's interesting introducing trail running or, like, intentionally doing things that are fun into the week. I've talked at length on this podcast about fun and joy.

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An example I share often is when I had Aisha Pratt-Lear on the podcast, we had to reschedule the first time because she and her teammates were out drinking mimosas- [laughs]...

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after Corey McGee ran an 800-meter PR in practice, and she was so apologetic, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is incredible." I'm like, "This is amazing that you're, like, it's 10:00 AM and you're having mimosas- Yes...

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to celebrate, and you're a professional athlete." Like- Yes... it's not, you know, a, an amateur doing this. It's somebody who's paid to do it. And so she said, you know, "I'm 30-something years old.

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I wouldn't be doing this if I weren't having fun every single day."

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And those who have listened to the podcast will hear me say for the millionth time, like, I think it is so important for objective successful running to include fun. Like- Yeah...

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I didn't start performing well until I loosened the reins a little bit and did add that fun.

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I think that's, yeah, that's very important and very key, and a lot of times if you're not having fun, you're putting too much pressure on every single run and focusing and analyzing things, and kind of reminds me back when I was younger in swimming and just, like, so focused on time, so focused on the outcome, and I've learned over time that it's way more about the process.

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And you need to realize, like, what are you trying to get out of this? So if it's a hard run, you know, you can't go and do a trail run if you're not doing trail races.

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But when you're doing the easy run, like, what's the point? The point is to just, like, get your muscles and your bones and everything used to running more miles.

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It's just time on feet, and so the purpose is to have fun, um, in those moments.

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And so I think that, like, as an older, more mature athlete now, I'm realizing, like, what's the purpose of every run, and how can I make it fit into my lifestyle so that I am happy?

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One of the things I loved is you now have additional workouts or doubles that are, like, a hike with your family- Yes... versus, like, a bike ride.

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Yeah, I had talked to, Bobby had, so I double every day now with Bobby McGee, except for Sundays, and some of those doubles are, like, he wrote down, like, a bike or, you know, a one-and-a-half-hour hike, and I went back to him and I said, "Look, I need these days, like, to spend time with my family.

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I can't every afternoon feel like I'm ditching them." And so Bobby's like, "Okay, well, let's include Stanley. Let's include Patrick. Let's go for a family hike, or let's go a family bike ride."

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And you know, so I'll go to the Belmont here, the bike park, and we'll do riding with Stanley around the bike park. So that's the sort of thing for me that has been really helpful in just being able to...

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I- I'm still getting everything I need out of my training, but I'm able to make it fun and include the people that I need to include. I love that. And I happily play anchor on your easy days.

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[laughs] Yes, I call you a lot. I'm like, "Jonathan, I don't have a running buddy. [laughs] Please." "I need to go slow today. Do you wanna run?" [laughs] Although the first day you ran with me, you ran kind of fast.

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Yeah, that was, that was too much. Yeah. We did eight at 7:20, and I was like- Yeah... "Mm, I can't really afford to do this right now." [laughs] Um, so you've, you've made some big changes in your career.

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You won an Olympic medal in 2016 in triathlon, and then switched to running. So let's first talk about why the change. I get asked that all the time. And triathlon chose me. I didn't choose it.

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So USA Triathlon came to me. They recruited me into the sport. I remember when I was younger, everyone was like, "You'd be an awesome triathlete," and I would say, "No, I don't wanna do that."

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And, you know, I was reluctant, and I'm so thankful that triathlon found me, and I'm so grateful for everyone who got me into the sport and everything that triathlon gave me.

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But I had this big goal in triathlon of winning the Olympics, and I did that, and for me, I was like, "Okay, goal accomplished. Why would I continue to do this when it's not what I truly..."

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I didn't enjoy swimming anymore. Biking scared me. Every time I'm on my bike, if I'm going fast, it scares me. If there's a descent, it scares me.

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And, you know, the, the Olympic course was actually, it had a huge technical descent, not technical, but steep descent, and, you know, I had to get over my fear and do that, and every day I was doing something that I was scared of and that I didn't enjoy.

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And so once I accomplished my goals, I was like, "Why would I continue to do this?" And the other aspect is, for me, I'm always motivated by big goals, and I'd accomplished it, so it was done with.

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And I thought, "What's the next big thing that I'd want to do and I'd enjoy doing?" And I had noticed in triathlon my running times kind of kept improving.

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I felt like I hadn't reached my potential in running, and I just loved running.Very cool. It's rare that I get to talk with someone who throws a goal on the board [laughs]...

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and then achieves exactly what they were looking to do. Do you- It's very rare... do you think about that ever? Oh, yes.

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I mean, especially now, like when I'm in running and it's just like I've been failing for five years in my head. And so, you know, I think back to triathlon and I just think back of like I never got an injury.

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Like, how did I... Everyone had told me like, "All you need to do is stay healthy," and I don't think I appreciated that until I got injured in running.

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And so, you know, I just think back, I'm like, I focused on one event on one day for four years. It was that one day, and I performed on that day. Like, what is the likelihood that that happens? Like, it's very rare.

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And so yeah, it's pretty cool, but it's also, you know, it also shows me how much other people had invested in me.

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Like, you know, everyone was telling me, you know, we learned about the course, and then we practiced the course. We practiced, you know, everything mentally, physically, and just no box was unchecked.

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And so, you know, it reminds me of how big of a team you need to accomplish those big goals, and as well, just how crazy good mentally you have to be focused to achieve a goal that you're focusing on for so long.

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It's hard. What were your thoughts after crossing that finish line? I mean, I... If you see a replay of it, like I cross the finish line and I'm in tears. I'm, like, bawling, which I'm not a very...

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I don't cry very often. I'm not a very emotional person in that way. But for me, it was mostly just relief. Like, oh my goodness, I cannot believe- [laughs]... I did this. Like, what in the heck?

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And then I remember just trying to find Patrick and my triathlon coach, Jamie.

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And I remember they wouldn't let me go find them 'cause I had to, like, cross the field of play, and people were still running, and I was just, like, so frustrated.

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I was just like, "Just let me hug the people that let me get here." [laughs] Like, I just wanna do that. So, you know, my emotions were relief, grateful, thankful to everyone.

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Yeah, and a, a little bit of, I guess, like, wow, I can't believe I did this. And so where does full-time running enter the picture?

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Yeah, so after that, the plan was always to have kids, and I kinda thought I was gonna be done completely with sport. I just didn't think you could be a mom and an athlete, and I think that was kind of...

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There'd been moms before 2016, but I think in 2016, there were so many moms. And I mean, I say so many. There was probably, like, one or 2% at the Olympics, but so many more than we had seen in the past.

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And to me, I was like, wow, maybe you can be a mom and do sport. And so, you know, we had to wait a little while till we could try to have a baby because of the Zika scare, but we got all that testing done.

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We started to have a baby, and just while I was pregnant, I started talking to Pat, and I was just like, "Why would I do triathlon?"

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And I talked to Pat, I talked to my triathlon coach, Jamie, and they're like, "Well, maybe we need a new motivation. Maybe it's money." And I'm like, "I'm not doing sport just for money."

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[laughs] Like, that's ridiculous. Like, I'm not gonna do that. Doesn't motivate me. Like, I'm gonna be in it one foot in, one foot out. So yeah, I was like, "I really wanna try running."

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And I remember talking to a few people, and talked to a bunch of running coaches, and some of them laughed in my face and said, "You're crazy." And, and some of them said, "I believe you can do this. Let's do it."

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And some others thought, "I don't know. Maybe you can." And for me, I... You know, I guess I'm grateful that, you know, triathlon gave me the opportunity to be able to run and try this as a career.

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Out of college, I wanted to be a professional runner, and I wasn't good enough to have a pro contract. And so, you know, I kept improving and- in triathlon, and I thought, wow, now, now's kinda my chance to try it.

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Very cool. So you mentioned what you're not motivated by. What are you motivated by? I'm motivated by new challenges, for sure.

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Like, something that is a bit crazy, but I know that, like, somewhere in me, a, you know, perfect day, I could accomplish it. And so that definitely motivates me. I just, you know, I'm someone who's very...

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I, I was talking to my sister the other day, and she's someone who's active, but she was just saying how she could never be an athlete because she doesn't have, like, this motivation to hurt. I kind of like that pain.

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Like, I like pushing myself to these new limits, and for me, it's all about, like, I know I haven't reached my potential in running, and I wanna see what, what that is. What do you think it is?

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Uh, you know- Or is it just, like- No, I'm-... a thing that keeps moving? It, it moves. It definitely moves. 'Cause, like, right now, I'm, I'm not very confident in big goals.

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Like, I know I can run a decent marathon, but I don't know if I can be world-class yet 'cause I haven't... I mean, I've run two marathons, and I ran 241 and 235 or 236, I can't remember.

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And, you know, I was talking to Bobby the other day, and I'm like, "My first marathon, it just needs to be, like, okay. It just needs to be like, oh, yes, I can do the marathon." Right.

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'Cause I haven't had a performance like that yet. So, um, you know, I think what keeps me motivated right now in the moment though is, like, I see improvements on a daily basis, and yeah, I don't know.

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I, I need a okay race, and then I'll tell you how far I think I can go. [laughs] Talk about your experience coming to Boulder. You've, your process in the city decision-making was fascinating.

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[laughs] With how open you guys were with, with it. Um, you landed on Boulder. That was my vote. [laughs] And I- I've got to, I've gotta hit up the Boulder, uh, Town Council for my, my referral bonus there.

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Yes, you should. Yes. [laughs] Um, talking about your, your experience here so far. You've been here for, for a few months. Yeah, I've loved it.

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You know, funny thing, I remember Pat for years has said we should move to Boulder, and we actually did, uh, like, look, search, discover maybe three years ago, and then again two years ago.

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And every time I'm like, "I don't like Boulder. I'm not moving to Boulder." I just felt like it's the place that all the triathletes go, so that's why I didn't wanna go there. You're not wrong.

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[laughs] So yeah, I mean, then, you know, in our process, we went to all these different cities around the US, and we actually weren't even planning to come to Boulder, and we booked tickets last minute to try it one more time, and I was just like, "Oh-Darn it, I love it.

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[laughs] So yeah, we ended up moving here, and it's been great. Uh, we haven't found a place to buy a house yet. You just bought a house, which is, I'm in it right now. It's amazing- [laughs]... Jonathan.

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Uh, but anyways, yeah, we're renting. Don't look downstairs. [laughs] Don't look downstairs. Yeah, we're, so we're renting right now, and it's just been a super easy, easy move. Everyone has been so welcoming.

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Um, you know, you've taken me for runs, I don't know, like, within the first week.

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And, you know, Alan Lim is here with Scratch Labs, and, like, he's, you know, come to workouts with me, and he's invited me out to dinner and all.

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So, like, everyone's just been incredibly welcoming, and it's just been, yeah, a really fun experience. I'm a little nervous for the weather to turn. [laughs] My last winter was spent 5,000 feet higher. Ooh.

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So I'm excited for the weather- [laughs]... to turn because it can't possibly be worse than last winter. Knock on some wood. Knock on wood.

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[laughs] Um, one of the things I enjoyed was your training with Peter Bromka- Yes... in Portland. It seems like you've found a training partner here as well.

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Talk to me about the training process that you follow and, like, training with someone. Yeah, so my training process has changed a lot.

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When I was in triathlon, it was train with your direct competitors and having that atmosphere.

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You can see what they're doing on a daily basis, so you can improve, and that's what I was searching for with Bowerman Track Club and what I got. And I really like that process.

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I would say some of the girls on Bowerman were just a little too quick for me. [laughs] Mm.

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So yeah, I skipped the last altitude camp with Bowerman, and Peter Bromka was just there every day training with me, and it was just, he brought this energy and excitement, and it was just, it was really motivating for me seeing him there just for me.

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And yeah, here in Boulder, Evan Schwartz has been running with me, and I, I don't really understand yet why these- [laughs]... men do this. I'm like, "Are you just doing it out of the kindness of your hearts?"

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Like, I, I don't really know what they get out of it, but I get so much out of it.

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Just, you know, I remember Peter, like, when we'd be doing reps, he'd be like, we'd be halfway in, he'd be like, "Come on, let's go," and just, like, yelling motivating things.

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And, um, Evan here is a, he's a different personality. He brings, like, just super lightness and- Calm? Yeah, and, like, and a fun energy as well.

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You know, just stuff that you need when you're hurting, like, you need that little uplifting spirit, and you know that they're there for you, and they're pushing you every day when you're there.

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So it's just, yeah, it's been really fun. Very cool. I don't want to put words into their mouths, potentially Bromka's- [laughs]... but, um, I love pacing, and I love, like, helping somebody else achieve their goal.

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So my, my gut tells me they're thoroughly enjoying it. They're not just doing it to be nice.

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Yeah, and Bromka made a post about that once, about how, like, motivating and just how much fun he got out of- And how fit he got... helping someone else. [laughs] Yeah, he finally broke 15 in the 5K. Yeah, yeah.

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So it's working both ways. Yeah, I think it's the kind of...

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Like, I see my coach pacing a lot of athletes, and, um, I think there are just some people that, like, really just enjoy sharing the work with someone else, whether or not it's their max effort or their 50% effort.

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Yeah, yeah. I mean, I'm very grateful. It's really fun for me. [laughs] Very nice. So after our run on Sunday, you posted about trail running- Yes...

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and the fact that you used to shy away from it because it was so focused on pace.

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I'm curious, your relationship with metrics, running metrics, coming from triathlon into running and being in a place where there are so many of your competitors around you.

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Like, talk about your relationship with objective measures on the watch. Yeah. I guess I'm gonna ignore that question first and go to, like, trail running. Like, another...

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I remember I did a lot of trail running in triathlon, not a lot, but every once in a while, and I thought, like, "Oh, man, this really gets my feet strong. It's good to practice this stuff."

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And then when I was a runner, I was like, "Oh, I can't go on trails. I might get hurt." And I don't know. Like, I like coming back, and, like, I, I say this until I get hurt, but, um- [laughs]...

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you know, I think the trail running just, like, it actually, like, helps me get a little bit stronger as well, which I really enjoy.

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But yeah, the metrics piece, I've actually been using, since with Bobby, he has me use power, and the power is something that is consistent no matter if you're, you know, at sea level, at altitude, if it's uphill, if it's downhill, if there's wind.

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Um, and so it's something that you can just, like, compare no matter the terrain and what's going on. And so that's something that I have definitely been using, which has allowed me to not focus so much on pace.

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And, you know, now that I'm with Bobby and I'm the only person in my group, it's so... I, I don't find myself comparing to anything. I don't compare myself to anyone because you don't know what anyone else is doing.

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And yeah, you can see one workout, um, that somebody posts, but you have no idea, like, what did they do the day before? What did they do two days before? What did they do five days before? Right.

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And that all has an impact. And, you know, there's no secrets to success in running. I don't believe there's any things that I do or that anyone does that makes them better than anyone else.

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It's just putting in the work, and I really don't think there's any secrets, and it's just one workout doesn't make you, and one workout doesn't break you. Hopefully. [laughs] Yeah. Maybe it could break you- [laughs]...

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physically, but...

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[laughs] Yeah, no, I, I agree with that, and I think that's been my takeaway, particularly with, um, within the last couple of years that, like, there is no secret, and that's not just the secret to success in running.

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It's the secret to success in anything. Like- Yes. It's hard work, it's showing up every day, and it's not getting discouraged, right? It's just, yeah, it's just showing up, basically.

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As Des would say, what, what's her, what's her line? Keep showing up. Yeah. There we go. I think that's the secret. But again, secret to anything, which is- Yes...

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which is one of the carryovers between running and life and life and running. I think that, like, so much of this hobby for some or job for others that we get to do is like a sandbox.

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And I had a, um, an ultra, ultra runner on. She does 250-mile races. Oof. And she's like, "I can screw up in running, and I probably won't die." [laughs] Which is, like, needs to be caveated- [laughs]...

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for someone who's running for four days straight. Um, but she's like, "If I mess up with my kids, then you can't just undo that. You can't just start another race."

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That's right.Recover Athletics is a supporter of not only this podcast, but also my own running.

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I plugged in some of my more common aches and pains, and I got a custom-built program designed to strengthen the muscles and tendons that will help avoid these issues going forward.

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Your first custom pre-app program is free, and they have an unlimited free trial. You can get it on the App Store right now by searching Recover Athletics or click the link in the show notes.

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If you like it and wanna upgrade, their premium subscription costs less than one trip to a PT. Give Recover a try today. Your legs will thank you.

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[upbeat music] Thank you again to Tracksmith for their support of the podcast. I've been a fan of Tracksmith and their community first efforts ever since my early days of running in Boston.

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As my miles increase again ahead of some big goals this coming spring, I'm definitely doing it in comfort and style with their gear.

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I'm also proud to partner with Tracksmith because they're going to donate 5% of your order value to the Michael J. Fox Foundation for all orders, and you'll also get free shipping. The Michael J.

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Fox Foundation is dedicated to finding a cure and helping those living with Parkinson's. Both of my grandfathers have or had Parkinson's, and I'm grateful of Tracksmith's support for something so personal.

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Visit tracksmith.com/forthelongrun to see some of my favorite pieces, and all orders that start from that page will contribute towards this donation.

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[upbeat music] So switching gears entirely, on Sunday, we talked a little bit about social media and how you use it.

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I've found that your use of social media is really interesting, and you've got a lot of people interested in, in you and your journey, both in and out of running.

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So talk to me about your process with using social media and Instagram. Like, is it intentional? Is it just something you do? Yeah. Um, [sighs]

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I'm a very introverted person, and social media and just being a professional athlete was something that was really difficult for me in the first few years as a triathlete.

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And Patrick was the one that actually really helped me kind of overcome that. And you just kinda, like, get used to doing stuff.

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But with social media, I've always had the approach of I'm an introvert, but I'm also, if you get to know me and you ask me a question, I'm always gonna tell you what I think, and I'm probably gonna overshare.

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[laughs] Um, and that's just kind of how I am with social media. Like, I, you know, just going back to, like, there are no secrets, I like to share everything 'cause I just don't think there's any secrets.

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And so with social media, I've always just kind of tried to be genuine, and I also think it's a way for me to connect with the public and, and fans.

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Um, something that has really kept me in the sport, especially triathlon, is people have told me, like, "You've changed my life. Like, I used to be overweight. I would never exercise.

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And I, you know, saw this, and you changed my life because I started to, to be active again." And those are the sorts of things that I think I can do through social media is help those people.

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So if I can inspire just one or two people to change their lives and be active, that's something that's really inspiring for me. Very cool. Uh, fast-forward five years, what are you really proud of?

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Well, hopefully having more kids. [laughs] I mean, I think, like, my biggest accomplishment that I've had is having my son, Stanley, and I'm not a perfect parent, and I screw up all the time.

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But just being able to see him grow and, you know, he's such a fun age right now, just the things he says and the s- things he thinks about, it really makes me think about what I'm saying and what I'm doing every single day because you see, like, your kids mimic everything you do.

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And I think that makes me become a better person. But yeah, I mean, five years down the line, I'd hope that we have grown our family, and hopefully, our children are thriving. Very cool.

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On the athletic side of things, what would you be really proud of? Oof. That, that's-- You're gonna have to come back to me- [laughs]... until I've had that one race that proves that I'm an okay runner.

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[laughs] What are you gonna be thinking about when you have that race? My okay race? Yeah. Just, "Oh, thank goodness. This isn't all just a complete crazy dream." [laughs] What if it is?

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Um, well, I, I really think I'm not-- I don't, I don't think I'm- I've reached my potential. I know-- I'm, I'm pretty sure I haven't, just, like, based on training and what I've done and...

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Like, Bobby had me go back and, like, tell him what I did before my 2:41 marathon in New York, and it's like I raced three triathlons the week before. Like, literally, I did one Friday, Saturday, Sunday.

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I never ran over 54 miles a week. I topped out at 54 miles. My longest long run was 16 miles, and I ran 2:41. So I'm like, "I've gotta be able to go faster than 2:35 or whatever." Anyway, I don't know.

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I mean, I think, you know, I think about that with Stanley, too, some days. It's like, "Why am I doing this, and what am I trying to teach him?" And, you know, a lot of it is work hard, and how do you deal with failure?

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Like, I've had a lot of failure over the last five years and, you know, am I going home, and am I crying and curling up in a ball and not, you know, just, like, never experiencing the world and giving up?

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Or am I, you know... Yes, I probably cry when I have a bad race, but I continue on, and I try to improve, and I say, "Where have I gone wrong, and, and what can I improve?"

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Peter Rompe had a Twitter thread a few months or years ago at this point, and he was, I don't wanna say ranting about podcasts, but- [laughs]... he was just talking about podcasts.

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And in the rant, that wasn't a rant, he tweeted about-- He tweeted a challenge to podcasters to, like, ask deeper questions and things that aren't fluff-related- Yeah...

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and dive in and peel back the onion on failure and, and things like that.

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So this question is from Peter from two years ago in a way.What's a, what's a, a time when you did fail and you're happy you did because of where it brought you? Oh, I know exactly. I know exactly that failure. I...

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The first tw- 2012 Olympics, I got a flat tire, I got 38th out of, like, 40 people or something at the Olympics. Like, I basically got last.

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And I crossed that finish line, and I just remember thinking, "I need to come back here in four years and I need to win." And it was like this immediate, like, failure to what am I gonna do next. And it completely...

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Like, before, before that race in 2012, I was really hesitant. Like, I was working as an accountant. I didn't wanna give up my job, I didn't wanna move away, I didn't wanna be with...

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Like, my coach was remote, 'cause I was like, "I can't move away from family. I can't..."

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I had this, like, I need to be able to make enough money on my own to be able to support myself, so like that's why I didn't wanna give up my accounting job. And that race completely changed me.

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I went from that extreme to the other extreme of like, all right, what do I need to do? What are the best in the world doing? Oh, they're living abroad? Sweet.

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I'm gonna go and live abroad for nine months of the year, and that's what I did. And it was because of that failure that I was able to win gold and have that motivation to continue.

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That and, not only that race, but also Patrick being willing to travel with me. [laughs] Yeah. It's a, it's an interesting dynamic. He's an agent for cyclists. Mm-hmm. And, um- And some triathletes, yeah...

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and some triathletes. Not me. And, uh, and never you, right? Never me. Um, so he, I mean, so he, when he originally started helping me in triathlon, he was just...

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He was a professional cyclist, and then he quit his professional cycling career to just support me and just help out with everything. And, you know, then we had Stanley, and he was, like, a stay-at-home dad.

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And then he started this agency, just kinda fell into his lap, and yeah, now he's an agent. He has so many roles now. But yeah, he's never been my agent. It's...

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You know, he's helped me out on the bike before, but with the agent stuff, he always, for me, he's always, he wants to be the nice guy, and he is the nice guy, but with me, I feel like he overcompensates.

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And it, it's just, you know, some people can mix husband, wife, and jobs, and that's just, in that role, we can't mix 'em. We've dabbled in it and it hasn't worked. Makes sense. So Patrick and I did a podcast.

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I'm trying to think of when it was. It was before the Olympics because we talked about if the Olympics were gonna happen. I think it was June. It was a great one. And- Yeah, he said the Olympics weren't gonna happen.

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He was wrong... he said the Olympics weren't gonna happen. Yeah. Wrong, wrong. Go back and fact check that podcast. Um, and I, I've gotten to know him as well, and it's amazing how supportive he is of you- Yes...

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um, and your career and family. I keep asking him over and over, "Do you want me to quit?" And he always says no. [laughs] So I'm like, "Okay." I think he'd be bored. [laughs] Yes.

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No, it was, it was incredible, like the way that he, he raved about you and- Yes... talked about your athletic career was- I hope he gets...

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I'm sorry I'm interrupting, but I hope Stanley gets from him Patrick's caretaking thoughtfulness. Like, Patrick is always thinking, like, "What can I do to help this person?" Yeah.

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And I really hope that Stanley can get that quality. It's a really good one. It definitely is. When, uh, when you guys moved here, I asked him, like, what I could do to help, and it was all about you.

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[laughs] Like, "Go for a run with Gwen, make her feel co-" Like, this kind of stuff. It was all about you, nothing, nothing about him. It was, it was super cool. Back over to you. [laughs] Um, now I'm curious.

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That question I asked Mike a few years ago, what, what are you afraid of?

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I heard you say that, and whenever somebody says that, I always think back to high school, and I remember my high school swimming coach said, "I think, Gwen, you're scared of success."

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And I remember him saying that and thinking, "Whoa. Weird."

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And I think at the time I was a little bit scared of success, but I remember that being, like, a turning point in my life where I was like, "Oh, I'm not scared of success, I'm scared of failure," or, "I'm not scared of s- failure, I'm scared of success."

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Like, it's, it just seemed a little bit backwards, but [sighs] what am I afraid of now? I mean, it's all just, like, Stanley. Like, not protecting Stanley. And yeah, not raising a good boy, screwing up, screwing him up.

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You know, I said this earlier, but, like, I'm not a perfect mom, and we make tons of mistakes. Every mother and father do. So yeah, that's just all my fears now. Not being able to protect him.

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Oh, I remember the first time he got made fun of. He, like...

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My mom was in town, and she had made chocolate-covered marshmallows, and he loved them, and he wanted them in his lunchbox and brought them to school, and he came home and he said, "Never put those in my lunchbox again."

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And I was like, "Okay. Why?" He's like, "So-and-so said they looks like they had poop on 'em." And I was like, "What?"

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I'm like, "You're three years old and somebody's making fun of you at school 'cause you have chocolate-covered marshmallows?"

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Like, and I just remember in that moment being like, yeah, I can't protect him his entire life, and he's gonna be made fun of, and we have to prepare him to be strong, and i- it's just, yeah, that's all you think about when you're a parent.

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So how do you proceed with that fear in mind? I don't know. I, I think, you know, Patrick and I talk about it all the time. Like, we definitely, with Stanley, we, um, we let him do a lot more than maybe most people do.

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We're very lenient, and sometimes I'm like, "Should we be more strict?" But I think, you know, just teaching him through our actions and what we do and how we respond to situations.

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Um, you know, like, we talk in front of him all the time about things like, oh, this happened, or something went wrong, or somebody said this thing about me that made me feel this way, and what are we gonna do about it?

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And I think just having those conversations in front of him and how we solve them, hopefully, um, he sees that life isn't perfect and how you can move on from that stuff. Very cool. I guess...

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Well, sorry, I'm gonna continue. [laughs] You're like, "Gwen!" It's good for podcasting. Go.

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[laughs] Um, I think, like, one of the, my biggest strengths is I don't care what other people think, and I constantly think about how can I get Stanley to that place at an earlier in age.

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I think, like, the older you get, the easier it is for you to not care about what people think. At least that's how it's been for me.

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But I just remember, like, I-Middle school, high school, like all you care about is trying to fit in and what other people think.

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And I just hope that we can somehow, I always think about how can I teach them that lesson because as long as you know that you're doing your best, you're following the rules, you're doing all you can do to be your best self, that's all that matters.

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It doesn't matter what anyone else thinks, and like that's the one lesson if I could just instill that in my children, that's what it would be. And the rest of society- [laughs]... at large. Yes.

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I'm not as emotionally attached to the rest of society, but yes. [laughs] I wanna go back to what you said about your high school coach- Yep... um, and the fear of success. What does that mean? What does that mean?

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You know, I think back then I was someone who was so obsessed with swimming, and I was going best times in practice, and I couldn't never, like I remember my 500 free, like I broke five minutes in practice but I could never do it in a meet.

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And then when he said that to me, I was like, "Maybe I am scared of success," 'cause like I'm showing up at practice, but like in the meets I always seem to like self-sabotage.

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And I think it's m- the first time I realized, and I think a lot of, I'm gonna, I don't know if this is sexist, but I feel like a lot of females self-sabotage more than males.

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And, you know, it's very easy for us to see our flaws, and we don't often celebrate our successes. And I think if you're able to celebrate your successes, you're not as scared of them.

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It's almost like back then, you know, even if I did something that was good, I would still say like, "Oh, that was horrible, and this is what I should've done better," even if I accomplished what my goal was. And

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so I think, you know, being scared of success, it's, it was more about like not celebrating success when it happened, not being in it for the journey. And as I've gotten older, you know, s- what is success, right?

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Is it being able to win a race? No, because you can't control what other people do.

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So, you know, I think it's also your mindset of what is success, and I've learned over time that success is doing the process, doing the technique, and you know, like I said earlier, like just trying to be your best self.

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I love that. The question of what is success to you is a question I've started asking- Ooh... quite a lot. And so again, it's interesting to hear your opinion on it, and it's nothing tangible, which is cool.

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The self-sabotage piece is interesting. I perform really well in practice, and I can't seem to execute in races. I've had one really good marathon and six- [laughs] Sorry.

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And one pretty decent marathon, and five like not great marathons. At Boston this year, I did what I would tell people not to do, which is- [laughs]... don't do anything new on race day.

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I basically doubled my caloric intake- Oh, Jonathan... before starting the race. Don't know why. Sometimes that's nerves. Yeah. Or did you do it intentionally? No, I did it...

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It was, I, I was like, "I don't wanna be hungry when I start." Yeah. Normally I, I eat a picky bar and sometimes a gel right before I start. I had two picky bars- [laughs]... picky oats, a gel, and Rocktain drink.

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[laughs] So it wasn't just twice. Yeah. It was like three times as much. [laughs] And I was completely out of contention of my goal by mile 10. And so sometimes I wonder, like is this subconscious- Self-sabotage, yeah...

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self-sabotage because I'm afraid of what happens at mile 20 or mile 22- Yeah... or maybe- Like you don't wanna get through that hurt, yeah. Right. But I have gotten through that hurt. My, my best marathon was a 2:59.

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I ran it in 2019, and I ran a fantastic first 15. I ran my second-fastest half ever- Wow... in the marathon. It was within 45 seconds of my half PR, which at the time was like four years old. Insane. Yeah.

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And it got really hard at 18, 19, 20, and at 20 I did the math of like, "Oh, how fast do I have to run to still achieve my goal?" Which was breaking three.

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And I did it, and the splits tell the story of even, even, even, even, even, slower, slower, slower, even, even, even, fast. Yeah.

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And David, my coach, was like, "I was watching your splits," and I was like, "D- this doesn't happen. Like you don't, you don't reverse that- Right... after hitting the wall." In a marathon, yeah.

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You don't accelerate at mile 22, and I did. And I, I just remember, I remember like being at mile 23, mile 24, like actively choosing the hurt, like, "This is gonna suck." Yep. "Make it hurt"- Yep...

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was what I said to myself. And we hit mile 25, and some dude was standing there like clearly aware of what time it was, and was like, "Get on your horse." Yep. "Get the fuck out of here and go."

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[laughs] And I did, and I crossed that finish line, and I was like, "I just unlocked something that will allow me to do whatever it is I wanna do." And I s- I, I haven't, like harnessed that. That's the- Right...

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that's the part that's frustrating. Like- Right. You did it once, but you don't know how to do it again. I don't know how to do it again.

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I think a lot of athletes are like that, and I think, you know, for me, I've gone back to like, one, you know, you have to enjoy the hurt, like you said, and I've also kind of thrown away...

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Everyone has outcome-based goals. I have outcome-based goals for every race. But before the race and leading up to the race, I don't focus on the outcome goal, I focus on the process goal. Right.

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Like what's the technique? What can I, even if I get dead last, what can I do that I know I'm proud of?

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And part of this, like to get over my self-sabotage, what I did was every day I had to write down three things that I did well, and it was really hard at the beginning. Like, I was like, "I didn't do anything good today.

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Nothing." And I remember talking to Patrick when I started this, and he'd be like, "Well, y- you must've done something." I was like, "Nothing." [laughs] "Everything was horrible." And he'd be like, "Okay.

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Well, um, I think you hydrated pretty well." [laughs] And I'm like, "Sweet. Okay. I drank water," so I like put that down in my journal.

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And over time I started to realize, like, no, there are things, even if you have the worst workout of your life, there are things you did in that workout that went well. Even if it was just the workout.Yeah.

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Just doing the workout Just doing it. Yes. Even like, yeah, it's the worst workout of your life and just, you finished it. Like, you know, good job.

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Um, so like doing that was something that really allowed me to start to see the positives and then also see that it's not just about that one outcome. 'Cause like you, for Boston this year, the weather wasn't ideal.

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Like, how do you, how do you account for that? You can't. Yeah. You have to go back to process, technique. So I, I arrived to the start line of that race in 2019 in a mental place that I had never been- [laughs]...

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at the start of a race, which was, "I'm so happy to be here on this start line." Back to that thankfulness, yes. And let's fucking rage. [laughs] Yes. Yes. Like, I felt like uncaged- Yes...

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as I left the, the starting line. And for me, it was like the celebration of the thousands of miles prior, and I started the race, and I was running 6:40s, and I was like, "This is uncomfortably comfortable."

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[laughs] Like I, I don't know why- Yes... I feel this good, but just let it happen. And that feeling didn't let up for 10 miles, and then it started to feel like I had run 10 miles, and I just kept going- Yeah...

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until I couldn't, and then I kept going more. And like I'm, I crave that. I crave that, like- That high... that flow- Yes. Yes...

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um, of like mile, mile, mile, mile, like clicking them off like that, and maybe that's why we do it for those, those like really, really good days.

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Well, yeah, and I think, you know, as well, like you're bringing up a good point. We, why do we do this? It's a game. Right. Like, if you think of all sports like it's a game, it's supposed to be fun.

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You're supposed to go out there and you see little kids playing games, like it's fun. Like, we do this because it's a fun game. And so getting back to what Bobby said to you, that's how we stay engaged with it. Yeah.

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It's, it's how- Make it fun. Yeah. So I ran Boston. I came back. I started doing some running again, and David, my coach, was like, "Pick fun trails. Run with fun people."

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[laughs] Um, you know, run with, run long runs with Boulder Underground whenever you can 'cause you seem to thrive- [laughs]... in that environment.

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And so I think it's like picking your spots and putting yourself in a place where the process can be like the reward. Yes. Right? And you, I mean, you need to, you need to put in the work, but you can do that anywhere.

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And like you said, you need to make it fun, and you need to surround yourself with people who make it fun, but who also believe in you. Absolutely.

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What would you say to the Gwen of 2016, having just finished and won a gold medal, knowing what you know now? Um, maybe freeze some embryos.

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[laughs] I'm 35. I mean, I'm, I'm, I think I'm still fertile, but, uh, you know, it's, it's, my window's dwindling. I don't know. I mean, I, I'm sure that's not what you're asking, but [laughs]

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I mean, I feel like I've, I truly believe that I, I don't know when I learned this, but I told you this before, like not caring about what other people think has just allowed me to have such a fun, enjoyable past, I mean, six years even.

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Yeah, like, yeah, I, I, I don't know what I'd change or what I'd tell myself.

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So the reason I ask this question is because usually people answer with something that, like, most people need to hear, and so- You gotta go back a little bit further for me.

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I just feel like I've been living my best life the last- [laughs]... however many years. Yeah. Awesome. [laughs] Well, let's keep doing it.

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Let's keep living and, and go on some fun trail runs, and I'll jog some, some eight-minute miles with you, uh- [laughs]... coming up here soon. Yes. I love it. Cool.

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Gwen, thanks so much for taking the time to chat, and we'll see you out there. Awesome. [outro music] That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end.

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I hope you join in next time on For the Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails. If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too.

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This podcast and the accompanying music has been produced by Brian Walters of Single Track Sound. For the Long Run's logo was created by Vanessa Wolf of Sterling Wolf.

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[outro music]