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[upbeat music] So much of running culture has been consumed with higher, faster, stronger, and I'll be the first to say I freaking love the Olympics, I love world champs, I love watching elites, but elites are not the majority of people who make up the running community, the running industry, and this idea that being faster is better than running a 14-minute pace is just untrue, right?

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But that's the culture that we've been surrounded by. Welcome to For The Long Run, the podcast exploring the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated. I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt.

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Through personal and professional connections in the running world, I have the privilege of getting to know some amazing athletes.

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I've always been fascinated by the psychological aspects of running and what helps people to achieve success, however they define it, and this podcast is aimed at exploring this and much more. I hope you enjoy.

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[upbeat music] Thank you to Tracksmith for their continued support of this podcast. Tracksmith is an independent running brand inspired by a deep love of the sport.

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Their new fall collection just released and is now available. It features staples ready for all of your training and racing needs.

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The pin dot mesh of the Twilight Quarter Zip makes for a lightweight and airy top that can be layered or worn on its own.

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The Horizon Long Sleeve delivers the familiar feel of cotton with the performance of a tech blend that can be put through the paces and then be worn out for coffee afterwards.

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By using code FTLR at checkout, you can receive free shipping and support Bigger Than The Trail, an organization that is using trail running as a platform to advocate for mental health.

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This episode is brought to you by Freedom Solar Power, the company I used to go solar on my house. Go solar this year and you'll get to take advantage of the 30%, yep, that's new, federal tax credit next year.

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[upbeat music] Welcome back.

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I have Allyson Desir joining me on the podcast today. Allyson, thanks so much for, uh, for taking some time to chat. I'm super excited. Thank you for having me. Of course.

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So the first question is always a challenging one. Who is Allyson? [laughs] Uh, you know, at this point in my life, I would say that I am a mother more than anything, uh, or more than anything else.

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Uh, and motherhood sort of is the perspective from which I see the world, I see myself.

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So, um, you know, my, my activism, my community building, everything that I do really now comes from the perspective of I'm a mother of this human.

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I wanna make sure that I give him every opportunity I can and that, you know, in ways big and small, I can change the world, so when he's my age, he ha- doesn't have the same obstacles that I face. I love that. Um,

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the last conversation I ever had with my grandfather was very similar in, like, what's the meaning of life?

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The meaning of life is to leave the world a better place than when you entered it, and it sounds like your life mission is, um, effectively that for him, but for so many others as well. Hmm. Yeah.

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You know, before having my son, I was, um...

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I felt then that I was just as committed as I am now, but I do think something shifts in you when there's another human in the world that you are responsible for, and it makes you, um, just so conscious of not only what you do in the home, like, because there's but so much that we can actually do, but then how the world is treating him and what, you know, what the experience, I think about this too often, what the experience will be like for him when he stops being cute and people start seeing him as aggressive and, uh, just so many things.

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Where I, where we live, what we buy to eat, everything really [laughs] is around what's best for my son.

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So yeah, the world both-- having a child for me both made the world bigger, but it also made it smaller in that it was this narrow focus of making sure my son and other people like him can thrive.

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So this podcast is probably going to dive into a lot more along those lines in talking about how you are intending to improve the world so that he can experience a better world.

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Um, the podcast is intended to explore these conversations through the lens of running.And on its own, I think running is pointless. Our mutual friend, uh, Laura Green posted an- Mm...

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Instagram saying- She's so great... "Nobody cares." She's hilarious, but her, her thing is so, it's so poignant, right? Like nobody- Yeah... cares. It's the, like nobody cares about your time. It's- Yeah...

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and, and so my evolution of my relationship with running has gone from I must be Q, otherwise I'm not a real runner, to- Mm...

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I love the process, I love the people that it connects me with, I love the places it takes me, and most importantly, the lessons that, that I learn from it. Um- Mm...

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I, we, we could spend hours on that, on that last part. Mm-hmm. But this podcast [laughs] is about you, so I wanna kick it back over to you.

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You have a book coming out, actually, when this podcast airs, the book will be out, that- Mm... is the perfect epitome of, uh, the title is the perfect epitome of, of what I'm trying to say here, which is- Mm...

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running is the medium for how we can have conversations about how we experience the world. How I- Absolutely... experience it, how you experience it, how the person walking down the street experiences it.

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So your book is called Running While Black. Uh- Mm... talk to me about choosing that name, first of all. Mm. Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, you know, initially the idea that I had in my head, the first title was The Unbearable Whiteness of Running, which is, um, sort of a, a play on, um, The Unbearable Lightness of, well, I forget now the name of the other book.

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Um, the, the famous book, the [laughs] other...

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But so it was a play on that, and my intention, um, with writing this book, I thought that really it was gonna be more of a manifesto, and that I was going to be more sharing, I guess, from a perspective of like, historically, this is, this is what has happened historically, this is what's wrong now, and this is how we change it.

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But thankfully, my editor was like, "Okay, that's compelling, but what's even more compelling [laughs] is a book that talks, that centers you, centers your experience, and that allows the reader to go on this journey with you," right?

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And I, you know, it's absolutely true, because even when I read things, uh, or in particular when I read things by people who have different lived experiences, if they're just, like, telling me what's right and wrong, that's not, I don't get as invested.

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But if I see it through their particular experience, if I see the ways in which the world or their experiences in the world have molded them, then I'm, like, bought into it, right? I'm on board.

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Like, I totally, I can empathize and I can join the struggle. So in changing the name to Running While Black, that's exactly what I wanted to do.

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I wanted to make sure that this book, um, centered my experience, but also an experience that all, most Black people have lived, and, you know, uh, there's a statistic that, I think, 5% of books, uh, since the 1950s have been written by non-white people.

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That was a statistic published- 5%... in The New York Times. 5% since 1950. So if you think about what that means in the running world, think about the books that have been published in the running world, right?

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They've to- they've come from a mostly white perspective. Male. So that means- White male perspective... right, white male perspective, exactly. And so that means that, you know, stories like mine have not been told.

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The, the complexity of loving running and what it does for you, but also having fears connected with moving outside and feeling like the only.

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So in switching the title, I felt like, okay, there's a real opportunity here to get people on board and really lead from empathy.

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It's like a lot of the division that we're experiencing, I believe, becomes like, is, is from the fact that we're just shouting at each other what we think, rather than empathizing with each other and moving towards understanding.

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Yeah, it's so fascinating. Your editor must be a great marketer because that's, like- Mm... you're leading with a story versus telling. That's, exactly. And it's sh- it's showing, not telling.

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What you said there is, is so poignant, right? It's okay to have different opinions and beliefs, as long- Mm-hmm... as everyone matters, right? Mm-hmm. Mm. Um,

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I think that's the, one of the things we've forgotten about with social media.

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Like, I post- I did a podcast with, uh, Finn Melanson, and we talked about sponsorship for two and a half hours, and some of the feedback- [laughs]...

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so far has been, "I agree with tons of it, I disagree with some of it, but I loved all of it." And, like, that's how it should be. If w- if everyone's- Mm-hmm...

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in agreement with, with everything, um, we've, we've forgotten how to, like, have a healthy dialogue. Um- Exactly.

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I, I mean, I will say the, the one caveat to that is when people are saying, like, intentionally hateful things, right? Right. Totally.

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But even in those conversations, and, and I've been saying this recently, and this is sort of like a tangent, but when I think about, uh, what's happening to a lot of, uh, white men, ages like 18 to 24, even 36, and all of these shootings and all of this, um, toxic masculinity, right?

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That's all coming from this place of hate, but really a place of insecurity, a place of feeling not, like they're not being seen, a place of disconnection.

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Now, that doesn't mean that I feel sorry for these people, [laughs] that I excuse these people, but I understand that, where it's coming from, the only way that we can address that is for other white men in the community to create a different culture for white, young white men, right?

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A culture of empathy, a culture of understanding, of recognizing privilege, but not discounting their experience.

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Anyway, so caveat, like, hateful things are not okay, but we need to, we need to be able to have conversation and, um, extend the empathy because, look, if nobody starts caring for, [laughs] for, for those people, then we're gonna continue- We're all screwed...

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we're all gonna continue... Yeah, we're all gonna get shot, knock on wood, right? So-All right. Little tension on [laughs] a little tangent on, on young white males.

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[laughs] I'm sure we could both go for days on this topic- [laughs]... but let's, let's go back to talking about running, um, and, and our, our lived experiences in running.

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As we were talking about prior to hitting record, um, I was sharing- Mm... some feedback or some, my experience on a DEI training with Myrna Valerio, who I had on the podcast- Mm-hmm...

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last summer, and we were talking about the you don't know what you don't know, right? Yeah. Mm-hmm.

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And there's so, there's so much to, um, there's so much to understanding other people's lived experiences and just learning things in general that you might- Mm... like be completely unaware of. Mm-hmm.

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Um, was this, was this an intention with, with writing the book? Mm-hmm. Absolutely.

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You know, before writing the book, I, um, wrote an op-ed that was in Outside Magazine that went viral, and it was called Ahmaud Arbery and the Whiteness of Running.

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And in that op-ed I, I talked about the experience of feeling both joy and fear when running outside, of being targeted by police.

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And in sharing that experience, a lot of Black and brown people were like, "Oh, my gosh," like, "thank you, I feel so validated. I'm so glad that you share this experience."

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And a lot of white people were like, "Oh, my God, I had no idea." Like, "It just didn't even dawn on me that running could be seen as unsafe."

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And while that, that was frustrating to hear from white people because I'm like how, how could you not know, it also unlocks for me that there's an opportunity here to share with people who don't have my lived experience what my lived experience is.

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And I wanted to make sure that it was three-dimensional, that it wasn't just like running is scary and that's it. Because running transformed my life.

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It has given me community, my partner, um, my son, his, his first name, Kuri, actually means to run, right?

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So running is everything good in my life, but it also comes with, uh, a negotiation of space and a negotiation with the politics around being a Black body, right?

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What, what people think of me being in space, and then a history of laws that have always restricted my movement, right?

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And you can see that, you know, I know we're gonna get into this, but there are countless examples of Black people doing ordinary things, including running, and white people feeling threatened and knowing that they have an authority to do something about it, because history has shown them that they can do it and get away with it, right?

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So absolutely, I wanted to share an experience that had not been told, and then once people are made aware of something, they can take action, you know? And that's, that's really what this book is.

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It's like, okay, now that you know what you know, um, what are you gonna do about it? Intentional action is- Mm-hmm... the part that's the most interesting for me. It's not just the awareness, it's the like- Mm-hmm...

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you have to, you have to like actually change your life and do something- Mm... differently with this new information.

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Uh, I wanna dive into that further, but for those who don't know you, I wanna set the stage, um- Mm-hmm... of Allison the Runner. Mm.

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And it's changed your life, it's introduced you to your partner, uh, to your son, um, and to these amazing communities. How did, how did you find running? Mm-hmm. Yeah, it was, um, in November of, uh...

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Well, no, it actually starts in January of, I wanna say 20... What year was it? 2000 and... I can't even remember at this point. But I, you know, I was very depressed.

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I spent most of my days on the couch just like scrolling through Facebook. Instagram wasn't even a thing then. Um- Very healthy. Very healthy. [laughs] Yeah, super, super healthy. Uh, don't recommend any of it.

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It was, it was 2010 or 2011. Um, and as I was scrolling, I just so happened to see a friend of mine who was training for a marathon, and he is a Black guy, he's like 200 pounds, he has locks.

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Um, he is a member of this, uh, Black fraternity that's like super loud and all about partying. And I was like, "There's no way this dude is running a marathon." Like, "He is so not a runner.

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He doesn't have a runner's body, and Black people don't run marathons." So because I was miserable, I was like, "Let me follow this guy and see his misery."

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Um, but as it turns out, he was loving the experience, and every week he was getting like stronger and doing things he had never done before.

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And like all of us do when we share about our running, you know, our running story, there was like poetry in there and [laughs] right? Like all of this stuff that I was just eating up.

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And he completed his marathon, and I... You know, along the way I was asking him questions, and I just had this lingering curiosity for me. Like, this guy was doing this thing that Black people don't do.

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Could I do the same thing? And a year later, I decided to give it a try. So I signed up for that same marathon.

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Um, there was a fundra- r- fundraising component, $3,500 for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society in exchange for this training program.

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And that training program is really what changed my life in that we were given this 16-week program, there were twice weekly meetups that you could join, and it just was so simple.

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Like, if you do these things for 16 weeks, you will run a marathon. And my life was completely missing any sense of structure or order, right? Like, I couldn't believe that if you do X and Y, you get Z.

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Like, I was like, "Oh, maybe I can apply that to other things." Like, maybe if I...

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You know, I, I made this Excel sheet that honestly mimicked the training Excel sheet and started writing down all these jobs that I wanted to apply to and just knocking them off one by one.

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Like, I saw how this mentality of breaking up something big into little pieces could be helpful outside of running.

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And I, you know, I didn't really believe the coach at first that I'd be successful, but sure enough, every week I was running more and more, and I was becoming more embodied, right?

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In that there was, in my time of depression, I sort of lost a sense of-Not just who I was mentally, but physically, right? Like, I didn't have feelings in my body.

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And then suddenly I was like, "Oh my gosh, if I do a hard effort, I feel this way. If I- if my breathing sounds like this, that means this." And it was really cool because I no longer was having life happen around me.

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I was living life, and I was in control of myself, and that just was, like, amazing to me. So I ran my first marathon.

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I raised over $5,000 for the Leukemia & Lymphoma Society, and I decided I have to share this with other people, right? Like, you know, we become just crazy, almost religious people [laughs]

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wanting to make everybody- Evangelists... become a runner. Yeah, we are evangelists, and, um, even though people don't want to hear it. Drink your Kool-Aid. [laughs] Yeah. And so I just, I kept running.

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I, I had a blog, and then finally a year later, so this is 2013, I decided to start my own running group, Harlem Run, and it was a really simple idea.

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It was, "I want to start this in Harlem," which is a neighborhood that I had been living in. I had gone to school at Columbia, not far, and there were not people running. Um, but I wanted Black people to be running.

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I wanted it to be in this neighborhood that was not only important to me but important to Black history, just the center of Black culture, and it would take about,

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you know, six to eight months for anybody to actually show up, but it is the single most important thing that I did with my life because, again, it led to all of this, everything I have and am today, but also because, you know, weekly, I get to see the transformation of other people.

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And while I'm not as involved as I once was because I live across the country, it's just... like, it's incredible.

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Last night there was a plogging event where, you know, you run and you pick up trash throughout the neighborhood, and f- folks in the neighborhood, I, I'm told folks in the neighborhood were just so thankful because, again, a- another piece here is environmental racism and the way that streets in Harlem are not cleaned up the way that streets on the Upper East Side are, right?

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So the garbage trucks don't come as frequently, so there's garbage everywhere, and this simple activity of Harlem Run deciding to plog through the neighborhood was just so powerful.

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And, and things like that, combining running and something s- uh, you know, related to social justice is just, like, the best for me.

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So as you're sharing all of that, I can't help but think of how I got my start in running, which was focused on community, in a community that hasn't made big changes until late. It was November Project. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and I think of the way it changed my life- Mm-hmm... and how me, as one person, I have a podcast. Yeah. I'm so into running that I have a podcast that a million people have listened to. [laughs] Yeah.

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And I think of the opportunity [laughs] that I had, um, that I could run two miles to Harvard Stadium and show up with a bunch of people and feel welcome.

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And now I think about you creating this f- for, uh, a community of people that didn't have other options. Mm-hmm. And yeah, there were other options at the time with November Project, but, like, it was...

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there were other options. Mm-hmm. It's so fascinating to hear about a community that was started- Yeah... because there were no other options. Do you think- Mm-hmm...

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do you think about that, or is that, is that truly why it, it exists? Yeah. Yeah. You know, and, and I have, um...

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I, I'll get to the point about November Project too, because I have a, a long history with them, and it went from a great friendship to not great friendship and now amazing friendship. But absolutely.

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Like, my, my experience showing up in Team in Training was no- nobody said anything mean to me necessarily, but there was always this feeling of knowing that I was the only, if not one of the only, Black people there, that the cultural references, the way the- What, what did that, what did that mean?

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What did that mean to you?

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Uh, you know, just when you're the only person that looks like you in a space, it signaled to me that I didn't belong here and that I was doing something, um, disruptive that I hadn't intended to be disruptive, right?

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Like, I just wanted to show up and take part in this thing, and in going there, I realized, wow, like, you know, either I'm gonna be... I'll, I'll be both hyper-visible and invisible.

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Hyper-visible because everybody will know that I'm the only one here, but invisible because I will have to sort of blend in to, to not make waves, to not stand out any more than I, you know, physically do.

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Um- Why did you keep going? I kept going because it was saving my life. Because after the run each time, I just felt this, like, jolt of energy that lasted longer and longer, right?

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It's like, I, in my book, I actually talk about this because I also do take antidepressants still, and the way that antidepressants work is that you have to take them...

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you don't really see effects until, you know- Builds up... 60, 90 days. Yeah. Because it has to get into your bloodstream, and that's how I looked at running, right?

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Like, at first I would run, and I'd feel good just afterwards, and then, like, you know, s- 12 weeks into the training program, I, like, always felt this...

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I didn't always feel good, but I felt this sense of control and this sense of power of what I was doing with my body.

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So yeah, running absolutely, and now I know, um, that there are antidepressant properties that, that your brain experiences through running. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just...

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when you're the only person, you start to feel like...

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you start to question why you're there, if you belong there, and yeah, you start to try to, at least for me, I moved between making myself really small to not stand out and then making myself really big to fit a particular stereotype that I thought would be easier for other people to consume of me.

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Like what people would be familiar with.Exactly. Right? Like, what is the expectation of how a Black woman shows up?

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And that often is, like, Bl- the Black woman is the funny one, the Black woman is the quirky one, or the Black woman is the one who has, who's the one who cares about social justice, right?

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Which in this case, of course, happens to be true. But it's like white people don't have that...

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Or in my understanding and experience with white people, they don't have that burden of having to play the role of the white person, [laughs] right?

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Like, but a Black person, uh, you know, it's even still as- people assume that I'm gonna show up in one way, and it's like, you know, I'm multifaceted. You know?

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Like, I'm not always, I'm not always the fun, snarky, sassy one that you might see in the media and that you get shoved down your throat.

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So I absolutely was aware that I was building something unique and that was intentionally centering my experience versus November Project.

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And I showed up at those w- those workouts very early on and, and I will say November Project is very different now for the positive.

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[laughs] Um, but it was this culture of, like, screaming and being loud and humiliating people and making fun of people that just I could not stomach.

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And so you experienced these run groups in New York and said, "I need more. I want more. I want, I want to create something where there's, there's more to it than- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm...

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trying to both blend in and stand out at the same time." Mm-hmm. Yeah.

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What I've learned through conversations with a lot of people of different demographics, and particularly this discussion with Mirna as well on the DEI side of things, like, the conclusion is everyone just wants to belong.

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And- Exactly... you created something that facilitated that. So talk to me about, like, I'm coming at this, someone's listening and maybe they're, they're- Mm-hmm... looking to do something similar and create- Mm-hmm...

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a community and create a space where people can feel appreciated and like they belong. Mm-hmm. What, what were the first steps you took to enable that kind of an experience? Yeah.

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You know, there were some things that were just so basic and obvious, like saying hello to everybody. But it's you. But it's- Right... obvious to you. Yeah. Yes. Yes. That was so basic and obvious to me, right?

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Certainly, if it was obvious to everyone, then we wouldn't be having this conversation. [laughs] But the idea that you say hello to every single person that shows up.

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Like, I can't tell you the number of group runs that I've gone to, and now, um, I have the privilege of a lot of people knowing who I am, so people say hi to me.

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Um, but where you just go and you're in the back and nobody even, nobody acknowledges you the entire time, [laughs] right? Like...

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And so I was like, well, I need to create a group where everybody not only gets greeted by the leaders, which is something that is, that we do intentionally, but also we start with icebreakers.

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And that used to be, like, when we were small, when there was 25 of us, just going around the circle and saying your name and your favorite ice cream flavor or something like that.

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As the group grew, it became turn to the person or, you know, a group next to you and share your name and whatever the question of the day is. And that way you were actually seen, right?

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Like, you knew in a small way that you mattered. And then when you started running, you know, I, I had also gone to groups where you start running and then people put headphones in. And I just couldn't understand that.

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I'm like, "Why would you come to be with other people to then tune out everybody?" [laughs] Right? So we were like, "Nope. No headphones."

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Um, that doesn't mean you have to talk to somebody because I understand that talking can be difficult by, uh, while running, but you have to be aware of what's going on around you, right?

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So that you can say what's up or you can be more aware of something on the road or the lights or if we need to say something to you, you're, you know, you can hear it.

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Um, and then there were other things, like I had gone to runs where there was no clear, honestly, beginning or end, right? Like, people finished the run and then, like, it seemed like- Was it an ultra? No, I'm kidding.

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[laughs] Right. No, but it's like people finished the run- That's what's really bad... and then they... [laughs] No. Hell no.

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Um, but, um, but then some people would hang around because they were like click, you know, cliques and they were talking, and other people, like, didn't know, so you just sort of, like, backed up slowly [laughs] in hope that you faded out, right?

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So I was like, "No. We're gonna end every time with a cheer tunnel and then a stretch," and then, um, if it's light out, so in the summer we take the picture at the end.

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In the winter, fall, we take the picture before so there's lighting. But so that people know, okay, it's over. Like, you're free to go, right?

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And still people hang out, of course, but people have moved through this sense of routine that gives them a sense of, like, okay, I have completed it. You know, I can go.

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I don't have to, like, do this forced social thing if I don't want to. So those were, those were some of the things initially and immediately that I was attentive to.

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And then there were other things along the way that I noticed that groups, again, because November Project is on my mind, I remember November Project had this phrase, um, race everything, which unintentionally- Led to tons of injuries.

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[laughs] Yes. [laughs] Led to tons of injuries. Led to just a com- [laughs] a, a complete misunderstanding of, like, what is, what is a race and what is a run, right?

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And it's like we're laughing now, but, like, you know, you got injured, so you bought into it. So things like that, I was like, "That is not our modus operon, operandi. I'm not gonna post..."

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Other people, like, any time you had a good race, it's not gonna be qualified by what the time was, right? Like, a person who's super fast who had a good race is awesome.

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A person who runs a 12-minute mile and had a good race is also awesome. The focus wasn't gonna be on numbers. It was gonna be on how, what that effort meant to this particular person.

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And then I was, you know, also really attuned to making sure that we showed the breadth of people that showed up.

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So we were making sure that there were people in bigger bodies, in smaller bodies-Tall bodies, little bodies, older people, younger people, so that you could look at a picture and be like, "Oh, I won't be the only X there.

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Like, look, that person's there." Because social media was huge and remains huge in this world of community-building, and I know the importance of representation and of seeing it in order to be it.

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So those are s- those are some things that, and that evolves over time, and we're always evolving and, and figuring out how do we invite more people to the table.

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It's so fascinating hearing it from that perspective because

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I obviously experienced it in an entirely different way, and I ran my first marathon, and I came back to November Project like the week later, and I was like, "Man, that 335 was so slow." [laughs] Mm. Am I a real runner?

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[laughs] Mm-hmm. And Chris Payne said to me, uh, he was a leader for a number of years, he's like, "Man, you have to realize that this is not a normal group." Mm-hmm.

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And so here I was, like a 24-year-old white guy who felt like I was like one ring removed from- Mm-hmm... outside, which is like, sounds silly to say [laughs] in this context, but- Yeah...

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it's so, it's so, I feel like it's so relevant, and my, my experience with pace and- Mm-hmm... run groups has been so fascinating.

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I've been at run groups where like the, the back of the pack, so I, I host a group in Boulder, and we do it every Wednesday and, or every, uh, one Wednesday of the month, and I do my workouts on Wednesday mornings, and I run, um, [laughs] usually the mid to the back of the pack Wednesday night as my double.

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And so like I have no problem holding a 10, 11-minute mile- Mm-hmm... when I'm pretty tired. Mm-hmm. And so I run with people who I generally couldn't run with. Mm-hmm.

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Um, and they're just like, th- they've shared that, that this has never happened to them- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm... where someone was leading a group run.

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I'm not saying this to toot my own horn, I'm saying this because it was such like a- Mm-hmm... poof, mind-blowing- Exactly, exactly... experience that like again, I had never thought of that. Mm-hmm.

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And this is how people- Yeah... go about their entire lives.

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And the thing is that this is where, you know, obviously like the, the, my book and many of my conversations center race or come from, you know, the perspective of, of racial equity, but it's also, it's an intersectional conversation, right?

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Yeah. Like certainly white men don't feel like they belong in every place, and the idea is, you know, we want everybody to feel like they belong.

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But to your point, you know, so much of running culture has been consumed with higher, faster, stronger, and I'll be the first to say, I freaking love the Olympics, I love world champs, I love watching elites.

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But elites are not the majority of people who make up the running community, the running industry, and this idea that being faster is better than running a 14-minute pace is just untrue, right? Right.

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But that's the culture that we've been surrounded by, which is why something like the Boston Marathon then becomes the pinnacle experience of what it means to be a runner.

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So if Boston, and I talk about this in my book, this is where a lot of my hate mail I'm sure is gonna come from, but if Boston is the pinnacle experience for people, that means that the running community, running culture, is invested in being fast and being one of a very select few, right?

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Which is contrary to what people say, everyone's invited- Running is for everyone... if you just show up. Yeah. Running is for everyone, right? You're getting this mixed message, right?

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Because the pinnacle is you have to become one of just 20,000 a year that get to be in this thing.So, you know, and, and that's, that really can...

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It, again, it might sound silly, but it really can harm somebody's, um, mental health and, and you see how... Okay, let's go back to the elite level.

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You see how these idea of who's fast and who's slow leads to just eating disorders all over the place.

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You look at Mary Cain, you look at Kara Goucher, who I know is a mutual friend, the way that this idea has consumed people and led to unhealthy outcomes.

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So I just want it to be a place where I would like scream like hell for the person who runs a six-minute mile and scream like hell for the person who walks it in. Yes.

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What I find to be fascinating is the, the person who trains and runs and breaks five- Mm-hmm... is just as interesting as the person who OTQs, right? I had a conversation with Peter Bromka about this. Mm.

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And Peter's been chasing an OTQ for, I don't know, 47 years, longer than he's been alive. Right. [laughs] Shout out to Peter Bromka, the formerly known as the most referenced man on this podcast.

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[laughs] Um, anyway, um, down in Austin at Endeavor Run la- uh, this past February, he was leading a session talking basically about this. He's like, "Show me a five-hour marathoner who took- Mm-hmm...

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years to break five." And- Mm-hmm... nine times out of 10, their story and their reason for doing it and their, their desire to achieve like some arbitrary time goal is- Mm-hmm...

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probably a more interesting story than like- Mm-hmm... the person who ran collegiately and is really good and has a bunch of sponsors and- Mm-hmm... 50,000 followers on Instagram and then just like- Mm-hmm...

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barely misses the trials, right? Like- Exactly... that's a s- that's a story we've heard a bil- bajillion times. But the other one is someone who's busy, someone who has a family, someone who has a job, and- Yeah...

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still makes time, uh, for, for doing something that they love and probably makes them a better human. And so- Mm-hmm...

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my, my goal, my goal with this podcast is like extract the knowledge from the people who are like conventionally popular or successful. Yeah.

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And what's been so fascinating, I said fascinating a million times, I need another word.

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[laughs] What's been so interesting is that, um, all these people focus on the process and they focus on the journey and, and they, they're happy with growth and they're happy...

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They define success in a, in a way that they control the entire... Th- so they control all of it. Like you- Mm-hmm... you dictate the outcome. You create the outcome that you desire. And it's- Mm-hmm...

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not like breaking three, like- Mm-hmm... screw that.

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But it's- I mean, and, yeah, to be honest, like, so when I hear something like the breaking three story, I wasn't, I wasn't excited by the fact that this man was breaking three.

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I was excited when I came to know his story and, you know, his upbringing and what running means to him. Like, the, he could, to your point, he could be breaking six hours. Like, that doesn't matter.

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It's like who you are as a person.

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I have to say like I didn't really follow, um, I mean, I grew up thinking Black people run, well, seeing Black people only run track and field and so, um, and that's what I felt was like really exciting.

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I didn't care for long distance because I didn't see a lot of us and, but also because I didn't know the stories, right?

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Like I wasn't, and shout out to Kara Goucher again, I wasn't invested in Kara Goucher or Shalane Flanagan because, like, again, the numbers were arbitrary and the race was super long and I didn't care to watch for that long.

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But then when I started to know Kara as a human being and what she went through and, you know, having a family and what that meant in her life, then I was like, "Oh my gosh, this woman is fascinating.

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I'm invested in her accomplishing whatever she wants to accomplish." And that's what I think we miss when we focus on a certain type of people, um, a certain story.

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Like even Kara Goucher, Ka- they wanted Kara to be this symbolic white woman. That was not who she really was. Kara was being harmed by white supremacy.

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Lauren Fleshman was being harmed by white supremacy, even as thin white women, right?

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So all of us can benefit from moving away from these idealized expectations of who we are, of what running is, of what our journey has to look like, and just like getting to the deeper meaning and stories.

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Which leads to my favorite question. Mm. Why do you run? That has changed over the years. Initially, I ran because it was saving me and sort of returning me to who I was.

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It was s- saving me from this, um, really dark period in my life. Uh, then for a little while, I did run to see what I could do, right?

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Like getting faster wasn't necessarily my thing, but just like seeing what this body could do now that I was in good shape, I was like, "Holy shit," like, "Let's, let's play with it." And now running is to center me.

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My life is super busy. I don't have the time or really the interest in training for a marathon. Like I've... or even ev- any shorter races.

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Like I've tr- signed up for stuff and then been like, "Am I just doing this because somebody else just posted Metal Monday? Yes, I am." [laughs] Like, I actually don't wanna run a race.

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So I do it because it grounds me, it allows me time to collect my thoughts, and it teaches me patience. And how does writing fit into that experience?Mm. You know, writing, I've always loved to write.

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From the time when I was little, my mom tells me that I had, like, this bag, and in it, I had a little notebook, and I would always, like... I was always writing notes.

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[laughs] Um, and I've always really been fascinated with, again, hearing people's story, which is what led me to get my master's...

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One of the things that led me to get my master's in counseling, because I just thought, like, "What a powerful gift to be able to sit in a room, listen to somebody tell their story, and offer them support, and comfort, and, you know, a different perspective."

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So writing, for me, some of- sometimes writing is really fluid for me, and it, it honestly, like, it comes out... And this is weird to say, it comes out as if it's already been written.

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Like, I'm just, like, this vessel that's writing words, and that's when writing is really good.

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[laughs] Um, other times, writing is impossible and just feels like, you know, torturous, and that's when something like a run can really help me move through difficult thoughts and get unstuck.

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So the idea of being able to write a book about running and my experience running is just, like, the perfect pair [laughs] you know?

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Like, um, I was able to do two things that I love, two things that are difficult, that require endurance, and moving through the f- terrible first mile-ness of, of both writing and a run.

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Um, but then you have this, like, amazing accomplishment that you can share with folks. And how cool is it that, like, this is what you do? This- I know. Uh, uh, could you ever imagine that this is how you- I know...

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how you sustain life? It is so bizarre, because I... Growing up, I knew that I... Well, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wasn't one of those people who were like...

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when they were like, "What do you wanna be when you grow up?" Like, I didn't really have a thought on that, and I've worked about a million jobs. I knew that being in an office nine to five was not for me.

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I knew that I needed to have the creativity to sort of pair things that don't seem to go together, together, right?

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And if you think about what I do, so I, I build community, I'm a sponsored athlete, I'm, um, an author, I have my own TV show on PBS. Like, [laughs]

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what brings it all together is that I'm telling stories and that I'm building community. But like, no, I don't even know what to, like, call myself, you know? [laughs] When, when are you gonna launch your podcast?

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[laughs] Look, I actually... So I had a podcast. I have to tell you, like, shout out to you, because podcasting is so difficult because I, if you're...

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Especially if you're starting out, you gotta, like, mix it and edit it and, and I just... You know, I'm learning patience, because I don't have it. So if I had a team member, absolutely.

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The hardest parts are, like, uh, the editing stuff, and honestly, just getting somebody, like, nailed in for a time. Because I remember, like, you get...

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Like, I would try to schedule things in advance, and then last minute, everybody cancels or wants to reschedule. So [sighs] I had a podcast for two or three seasons, um, maybe one in my future. Yeah. It's, uh...

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So I'm, like, um, almost 250 episodes in at this point, and- Amazing...

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the, the first, uh, I don't know, 130 were all done by myself, and I created everything, I edited everything, I blah, blah, blah, blah.

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That is- And let me tell you, the sweet relief of not doing any of that anymore [laughs] is incredible. Yeah. [laughs] And but it's the same process.

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It's like you can't, you can't achieve success, or you can't, like- Mm-hmm... get to where you wanna be- Mm-hmm... on day one. This is what I love so much about running. You...

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This is what you talked about earlier, where it's like- Mm-hmm... brick by brick by brick. You took that approach to applying for jobs. You took that approach- Mm-hmm... to creating community. Mm-hmm.

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That's, that's that intersection of, of running and life where, again, it's completely meaningless unless you- Mm-hmm... can pull these lessons- Mm-hmm... from it, um, which I think is... That's the point. Yeah.

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I think, you know, there... O- of course, there's so many factors that go into what makes somebody successful, and it's not just hard work. It's, like, you know, all these other things we know.

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But many times, like, the people who are successful, i- it's just because they were able to sustain longer, right? Like- Yeah... I'm sure I could've been as successful in being a podcast host.

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I just, I didn't have it in me. [laughs] You know what I mean? And, like, that's, that's, like, the beautiful, ugly thing about it. It's like, you know, you don't, you don't finish that race if you give up at mile 20.

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Like, that's just... You know what I mean? And, um, and of course there's, there's beauty in the process either way.

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Like, I learned so much from attempting that, and you always learn something from a qu- a race you, you don't finish. Um, but yeah, I, and I think I was also...

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There's also a statistic out there about the number- this is related to women in sport, that, um, in the C-suite, most women who are in those positions have competed on a team or played sports, and it's because all of these, uh, because of all of these transferrable- The tenacity...

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uh, well, there's, yeah, there's a tenacity, tenacity. There's the ability to perform under pressure. There's the ability to delegate. There's the ability to be in- Be malleable...

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be malleable, and to be in something even when it sucks [laughs] and get to an outcome, right? So it's just, it's powerful. Like, everybody, I believe everybody should move, whatever way their body allows them to.

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The practice of movement is just an essential piece of life. Movement and connection. Mm-hmm. Exactly. Absolutely. Um, you do a lot of work with brands as well. Mm-hmm.

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There's been a shift in how brands see athletes, how brands see creators, how brands see diversity, how brands see diversity in skin color, in ability, in all these-...

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aspects that make people who they are. I'm curious how your relationship with brands has evolved over particularly the last two years, um, but, um, more so fi- the last five years. Mm-hmm.

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Yeah, this is another, like, pinch me moment because I remember my first sponsorship was with Under Armour, and I just felt thankful.

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Like, my ho- my only experience [laughs] my only, uh, emotion was I'm just so thankful, like, I can't believe these people are seeing me, like I'm the luckiest person in the world.

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And of course, some of that is true, but also, I didn't understand my value, right? I didn't understand what often happens in brand relationships, and I'll move away from the specific Under Armour conversation so

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nobody thinks I'm talking just about Under Armour. [laughs] Well, that, oh, that was, that was good right there. [laughs] But often what happens is- Packing it up and moving it...

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yeah, and moving it like, "Keep that over there."

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But what often happens, and I'm sure you've talked about this before on your sponsorship on that episode, is that brands are sucking the life out of people who are really excited and who wanna be noticed and seen, 'cause we all have that feeling of wanting to have a sense of belonging, and then, uh, you're getting completely exploited.

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I see this, I saw this all the time when I was in New York. I still see it.

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A brand will provide you with shoes and clothing, and then in return they'll ask you for all of these social media posts, they'll ask you to be completely exclusive with them- Yeah...

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they'll ask you to write blogs, and it's like, okay, on the one hand that's great because your story's getting out there and you have a platform, but on the other hand, isn't writing work, right?

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Like, who in this world does not wanna get paid for their work? So my first experience just being really thankful, but throughout it I started to think like, "Wow, hmm.

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I'm, like, traveling, I'm spending like 10 hours on set for things. If I were a model, wouldn't I get paid to be in this advertisement? [laughs] So why..." Right? Like, "Why am I not getting paid?"

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[laughs] So I started to just realize that there's a, a sponsor-athlete, partner relationship has to be one that's mutually beneficial and where you are valued for your work, and I feel really lucky that that's my experience now, and I am the first person a lot of people text or call.

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Like, I have, like, 40, uh, Black, Indigenous, Asian women who before they sign any contract, they say, "What should my fee be? Does this sound reasonable? Um, should I say yes?"

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And I always lead with, "First, like, how does it feel to you?" Right?

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Because even a situation that I might feel like is taking advantage of me, another person might feel is really, um, is really valuable, and so I don't wanna take that away from somebody.

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So I'm like, "How does this feel to you?" And then, two, like, money again is really arbitrary, which is so funny in this whole, like, influencer athlete world because... Right?

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Like, they wanna s- so I try to like- The brands are flush with cash, and it's just like- Yes... stupid amounts.

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[laughs] And the thing is, like, some, like, I've been offered a certain amount of money, and I've countered with another amount of money, and they've taken like- And they just say yes.

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[laughs] And I'm like, imagine if I didn't advocate for myself. Like- I've had this conversation with, um, Amanda Brooks and, like- Mm... a bajillion other people, um, but particularly her.

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She's been like, "Yeah, I think I need to charge more because everyone just says yes right away." And- Exactly. [laughs] And so she- Exactly... she just like adds 50% and people still say yes.

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[laughs] And it's, it's so frustrating because we know that culturally, white men make more money because they ask for more money, they negotiate better, right?

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So you think about, like, some of the women who I talk to, I, I mean, i- if brands are working with these people, I love it because just know [laughs] that I've told them to inflate their prices. They're getting paid.

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[laughs] Yeah, because it's like... And Myrna says this too. Myrna is like, "I charge a lot," because it's not just... Like, there's of course brands want the ROI of, like, you

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getting a person to buy the thing, but beyond that, associating with somebody like me, somebody like Myrna, signals to other people, "Oh, this brand in some way must be living up to values that are aligned with Myrna and Allyson," and that is invaluable, right?

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So I, I've just learned so much about equity. [laughs] When you're a billion-dollar company and you can't pay me more than $100 for a post, then like- And then it takes six months to pay it. [laughs] Oh, I saw that.

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You tweeted about that, too. Yeah. Chasing the invoice is another thing.

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But there just, like, we all, and I always talk about this, like, maybe there just needs to be a union where there are things like we all, we will not, um, we will not engage in any partnerships where we get paid more than net 15, right?

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Like, everybody else get paid, gets paid every two weeks. [laughs] Why are we net 60, right?

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So there are just certain standards that I hope, um, we can all agree to because if you get paid on time and you, and I get paid on time, and then you demand to get paid on time, it's not strange.

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Like, we're all just getting paid on time. But if somebody signs that contract that says net 90, then we all get sucked into being paid quarterly. [laughs] I was... [laughs] Yeah, right. How does that work for rent? Um-

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Yeah. I, [laughs] yeah, you can take an IOU from this brand. Um- [laughs]... I was literally just having this conversation with Tina Amir, um- Mm...

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and she, she is strong on the idea of, like, a council of podcasters or a council of- Yes... influencers, um, because... And, and I, I dove into this with Finn on, on that episode about sponsorship.

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But, like, so many people are so hungry just to get their first, their first- Yeah... partnership that, like, saying yes to a couple of pairs of free socks is worth it to them- Right... for three posts and, uh- Right...

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a reel that takes four hours to produce, and then that gets deleted and you have to do it a third time, and blah, blah, blah. Um, but that's not, but that's not, that's not equitable.

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I, I don't think that's a equitable way to go about it.Brands should never approach a person and ask them to do work for free.

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Like, we shouldn't even have to be in this position of being so eager to get our foot in the door, right? It's like, and I don't know if this is true everywhere, but there was a time when internships were all unpaid.

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Now, there are paid internships because guess what? It's illegal to ask people to work for free, [laughs] right?

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[laughs] So it's like, I just, I just hope we move to this space, and again, like, there are racial consequences here, gender consequences here, where, uh, uh, and I'm talking about statistically, overall, a white man will get paid more as a creator than a white woman, than a Black woman, right, because the inequity, um, filters into this, the, you know, the, the pay gap filters into this conversation as well.

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But a brand should not ask people to work for free. Like, anybody listening, [laughs]

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can we just make that a rule, and then we wouldn't have to, yeah, we wouldn't have to be so desperate, because it is really powerful when a brand puts you on their page and, um, centers your experience and talks about whatever you're working on that's really important to you.

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Like, that is so valuable, and I'm thankful every time it happens. But just don't make people work for free. I think there's a time and a place for it.

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I've been at, I've been at, I've worked in startups my whole career- Mm... and so I've been in the position where, like, are we paying electricity or are we paying postage? Mm. And there's no budget for, like, for lunch.

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Yeah, yeah. Like, for team lunch, we can't even pay for team lunch. We can't pay creators. So in a position like that, where the product is expensive enough that you're offsetting, like, actual dollars- Yeah...

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that you might have paid- Yeah... I think, I think there is a time and a place for that, but like, I've been offered, like, a $10 consumable product that you purchase maybe twice a year- [laughs]...

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for like, a post or, or like, three stories and a reel, and this is unrealistic. Um- Absolutely. Listen, I mean- And so-... if Peloton is listening, you can give me a Peloton- [laughs] Yeah... and I will do a post, okay?

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Yeah, totally. That is, that's so true. And so I'm, I'm wanting to, um, I'm wanting to build this, uh, a recording studio in my house, um, and so it's probably 2,500 to $5,000.

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I don't wanna pay that, um, so I've- [laughs]... I've pitched the local hardware store like- Awesome... "Hey, let's do a credit. You don't even have to pay me. I just want the lumber." Um- Mm...

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and like, so like, you can get creative with that, with that kind of stuff, um, in exchanges.

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But that sort of leads to, to a place that I've been so excited about recently, which is the non-endemic sponsors getting into the space. So something that's not directly related to running, but- Mm...

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maybe it's your mattress or your pillow or your solar panels or, you know, whatever it is.

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Um, from where I sit, I'm seeing a lot of interest from those types of brands getting into the space, and so it's so exciting because it means that so many more people can get- Absolutely... a shot at doing something.

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And, um, there's a company I chatted with a couple weeks ago, or a couple months ago, uh, Lagoon Sleep, and- Mm... they've gone on and signed 40 athletes who are now- Mm... posting about their pillow. Mm.

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And it's so cool, right? Like, cool side of the pillow. Um- Yeah. [laughs]...

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it's so cool that like, that, that a brand like this sees the connection between recovery and athletes, and any- everyone needs to sleep, and everyone has probably not thought about, like, the pillow that they use. Yeah.

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This is not intended to be a, a [laughs] pitch for- This is totally about that. [laughs] But, but that's the point. Get out of here. Like, that's the, that's the point, that like- Yeah...

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brands who are doing creative things are going to get extra just because it's novel and because it's- Right... creative and smart. Yeah.

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And so that's, that's where I wanna see things going, where it's like, not another shoe or, um, apparel, but like, stuff that... Like, I, I had this conversation and I was like, "Look around you.

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Look at the stuff that you, that [laughs] you use in your daily life," and- Mm... I was talking with an athlete about this, like, pitch those brands. Exactly.

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No, I mean, uh, it's funny because that's, I have a relationship like that too, where, um, you know, there's this...

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I actually, I randomly got sent this coffee, Runner's High Coffee, and I was like, "Oh my God, this is the best coffee I've ever tasted." And they're like, "What if we just give you coffee forever for free?"

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[laughs] And I'm like, "Are you kidding me?" Deal. [laughs] Like, yeah, I drink coffee every day. I love coffee [laughs] and it just works, right? Like- [laughs]...

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so I'll take back, like, you know, it's only about financial compensation. It's just about equity- Right... and which, if we return it to my book, it's just about equity.

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It's just about creating spaces and opportunities for all people, and that takes not just, like, mindset shifts, it also, also takes shifts in infrastructure.

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Because I can tell, I can count the number of times on one hand where I've worked with CEOs that are not white men, where I've worked with brand marketing teams that are not white people, where the people investing with me, investing in me and my projects are not people who look like me.

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And those are, they've all been great and fine people, and I've been thankful for their investment, but like, I mean, 40% of the United States, 40% of people in the United States are non-white.

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So why is that 49% not reflected in C-suites and in retail store ownership and in event management, right? Like, that's, that's where the problem is. I'm not saying like, "Okay, white people, like, you're done here."

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[laughs] It's just like, share the power. Absolutely, yeah. Share the access to decision-making and, and money. Yeah. The, um... Yes. I, I've got nothing to add to that. I completely agree.

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[laughs] And you're drinking coffee, and- I know... it, you, you need a lot more coffee as part of this, uh, change in infrastructure. Um-Yeah, I love this. Um, it, it's really cool that,

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um, these conversations are happening, that people are, are...

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From where I sit and, like, staring at the C-suite, um, I'm seeing it, and it's way different than anything else I've ever experienced in my long, long career of 10 years. Um,

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and I wanna see more, and that's why I want to- Yeah... that's why I wanted to have you on this podcast. I think, um, there's... Nothing happens until we listen to something like this and then do something about it.

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So in marketing, we use CTA or call to action- Yeah... as the, the one focus of what we want people to do. When you send a marketing email, when you post a post, what's, what's your CTA from this, from this podcast?

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That's easy. Buy my book. [laughs] My book. [laughs] My book will unlock all the answers. Um, and secondary to that, what I always say is focus on your awareness, right?

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Like, I can't tell you how many times I walk into conferences, I walk into spaces where there are industry leaders, and all of them look the same. And I wonder to myself, "Do they realize that they all look the same?

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Have they not realized that it's a little suspicious," right? Like, and that's the thing. Focus on that awareness and then be curious. Well, why is it that everybody looks like me in this space?

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Hmm, there's no people with visible disabilities. Oh, that's because there was no ramp. Oh, there was no elevator. Oh, we didn't have accessible... We didn't have captions.

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Oh, we didn't have somebody who was offering sign language, right? When you get, when you have awareness, you get curious, then you can create solutions, and that's really what this is about.

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This is not about shame and guilt. Trust me, I've used those tactics before, and you don't get very far. Right. It's about having people open their eyes, get curious, and take action because, like, this world is...

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Honestly, we're headed up in, headed in a really F'd up direction, and if we don't care more about each other, who knows what the future will hold? So buy my book and tap into your awareness. I love that. Um,

355
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where can people find your book? Everywhere. [laughs] It's literally you just type Running While Black, and my book will come up. But you can buy it on, you know, Amazon.

356
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If you don't wanna support Bezos, you can go to [laughs] any of your local bookstores. You can find it on, um, I mean, literally everywhere. There's also an audiobook, which I'm really excited about.

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I got to record my audiobook. So I've started listening to audiobooks on, um, while I'm driving, and I think this is the perfect book to listen to driving. Running would be really cool.

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So yeah, just wherever you buy books, you can find, you can find it, and I, I hope that you read it. I hope that you feel called to take action and that you have conversation, right?

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Conversation that might be super uncomfortable, that might make you think you're saying the wrong thing, but you can't figure out the quote-unquote right thing if you haven't attempted at all. Very cool.

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Make sure to use code Allison at checkout on Amazon. No, I'm just kidding. Um, Allison- [laughs] I was like, "Where's it go?" Which is-

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Uh, thank you so much for taking this hour to share your experience, um, with my audience, with your audience, and for doing all the work that you do. Um, I'm, I'm excited to hear the feedback from this episode.

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Um, please, uh, if you feel compelled, share your, share your thoughts on social, good or bad, I guess. Um- Yeah, I mean- [laughs]... all of it. And, uh, and we'll see you out there. Thank you, Jonathan.

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This was so much fun. Thank you. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs, it's sad when it has to end. I hope you join in next time on For The Long Run, and in the meantime, happy trails.

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If you enjoyed this episode, it would mean a lot to me if you shared it so that others can find it and enjoy it too. This podcast and the accompanying music has been produced by Brian Walters of Single Track Sound.

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For The Long Run's logo was created by Vanessa Wolf of Sterling Wolf. Show notes have been written by Ruby Wiles and is managed by Emily Holland. It takes a village. [outro music]