[upbeat music] What's up, y'all? Welcome back to Blockspace Live. We are coming at y'all live from Las Vegas with Ethan Vera, CEO of Luxcore Technology, as our first guest today.
We'll also have Jai, uh, Jai Patel of Lagos on to talk about some of the fallout from the Kelp DAO hack.
And we also have Brandon Green, CEO of BT Zing to talk about Bitcoin Vegas this year and why they're deciding to go back down south to Nashville next year.
We've got a few news items, uh, the Canaan and Tether Bitcoin mining collaboration, and we're gonna be giving our, uh, our takes on the conference this year to close out the show. We have a lot of takes.
Even though most of our conference has been in the hall- [chuckles]... still got some takes. This is Blockspace Live. We go live Monday, Wednesday, Friday at noon Eastern.
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Vera, thank you for joining us, man. Ethan Vera. Good to be here, man. Yeah. This is what being a veteran of conference looks like. [chuckles] Day, day four, 9:00 AM, we're hanging in there. Hanging on by a thread.
As always, uh, a bustling conference. Lots of stuff in the conference and outside of it. And al- as always, a lot of announcements, and y'all had some big news coming into the conference this week.
It's a really cool deal with MicroBT announced as you roll out firmware for WhatsMiner. So can you give us a quick rundown for our listeners of, of what this deal is and the synergies at play? Yeah.
I think we're, we're one of the rare teams still building in the, in the Bitcoin mining space. Um, not to say we're not interested in AI, but, uh, we, we wanna keep shipping product.
So for the, for the past two and a half years, we've been working on a firmware development and operating system that sits on the MicroBT device.
For a long time, it's been like the holy grail of firmware development, right?
Like, various third-party, uh, teams have tried to approach it and, and build on top of stock firmware, and for whatever reason, every single team has given up.
Now, the consensus was that MicroBT had better stock firmware than, than some of the other manufacturers. So there was already, like, more features and performance you could get from it.
The potential uplift was maybe a little bit less than going from other stocks. But the, the hard development cycle basically led other teams to give up, and we kept persevering and finally got it out.
So yeah, it's exciting to do. So you just mentioned that, you know, firmware for a WhatsMiner has been kind of the holy grail of the firmware scene for a while.
I mean, uh, third-party firmware for AntMiner's been around for a long time. Uh, Luxcore cracked that nut a few years ago. Y'all been working on the WhatsMiner stuff for a couple years at this point.
Why has it been such a long journey? You know, as Charlie was joking before the stream, there's- My- Yeah... my entire mining career was defined by When WhatsMiner?
It was a meme for years- And now we have WhatsMiner firmware. Because a lot of b- Bitcoin miners, they, they love MicroBT machines. They're very robust, they're pretty well-built, and now we finally have firmware for it.
W- what was so hard about cracking firmware for these machines versus the main models? Yeah. When WhatsMiner? Everyone responds soon, TM. Yeah. And then eventually, like, everyone went to, like, never TM.
[chuckles] We're like, "No." [chuckles] And so, um, when, when we approached the development, like, w- we knew that a lot of our clients like the MicroBTs. I mean, people describe them as, like, workhorses.
You see them running in places like Africa. Like, gridless guys are always, uh, very impressed by the quality of the machine, and so v- very well-respected manufacturer out there.
Um, and, and definitely, you know, has a lot of market share. So we wanted to, to build compatibility with it.
Um, and so yeah, we dedicated a lot of firmware engineering resources to this, which is never, like, an easy decision as a business.
Like, are you gonna dedicate all these very proficient people that could be working on something else for that long to a task in which you don't know what the outcome's gonna be? But we're, we're happy it worked out.
And really a lot of the difficulty was just on the actual machine specs of the different hash board types, the control boards, the power supply units that come with it.
Every complexity in the machine and every time that it's different machine to machine, that becomes very difficult for us to, to work on.
And, and you said that WhatsMiner machines could have one of 100 plus different control boards, right? And so part of the problem here is Bitmain uses like what? Like three or four, give or take. Yeah.
And, and if you're designing firmware, you have to make sure that you can break into that piece before you can actually get the machine to be compatible with your firmware.
So, like, your team had to go through all of those different models to figure it out? [chuckles] Yeah, exactly. Um, mo- more so, like, there's m- more hash board variants than, than control board types. Okay. Got it.
But, but e- even so, like e- each of these components you, you need to build compatibility for. And so once we started getting our hands on fleets of...
We started with the M5X series, uh, focused on the air-cooled machines. Like, you start to realize, like, how many different components are in here.
Uh, they're not very standardized in terms of which hash boards, control boards, and power supply units they use.
And so the firmware team has been super busy trying to get compatibility with enough for us to go to a large mining client and be able to actually start servicing them, right?
Because they themselves as a fleet might have a bunch of different variants, and if we can only install on, like, 5% of their fleet, they're, they're... it's, it's an annoyance for them. They wanna do it all in one go.
So this might be, this might elicit a, a po- a, a political answer.
So, like, these manufacturers, Bitmain, MicroBT, Canaan, they don't exactly hand you the full spec sheet and, like, work with you to help you develop third-party firmware.
W- So explain to me, like, what you have to then do in order to get this firmware live across, like, an abundance of different variations. Yeah, you're, you're right. They, they don't today.
I'm hoping that changes in the future. Like, our, our pitch to the manufacturers is... friendly. You, you have a great machine, a lot of people buy it, right?
They put in billions of dollars a year into buying these machines. Let us build on top of it, right? Like, we wanna build on the What's Miner, on the AntMiner, on the Avalon ecosystems. Um, so I'm hoping that changes.
And I would say we're, we're pretty close with two manufacturers. Actually, one in fact has been very open with us and has shared a lot of data that we, we plan to build on, uh, moving forward.
I think for, for us really, uh, what, what would be very helpful is getting that information so we don't have to reverse engineer to be a- to, to be able to install on the control board.
But then two is to be covered under the manufacturer warranty.
Most of these machines ship with like 12 months when they're brand new, and if you install a third party, it violates those terms, and miners don't wanna install it on new machines.
So our pitch to them is like, we, we have certain protections in place in the firmware, uh, regarding thermal dynamics, so like monitoring temperatures on the control boards and the hash boards, and we feel like that's the number one cause of, uh, failure of the machine.
And so we actually think it's like safer to run a firmware that has like thermal management. And so our, our ho- our holy grail pitch to them is really, "Let us be covered under your manufacturer warranty."
So one part of this announcement, there's obviously the firmware, and you said y'all started with M50. Um, I'm assuming M60, M70 soon. When. [laughs] When, M70. When.
Um, but there's also this strategic investment from MicroBT into Luxor, and then there's this purchase commitment for $100 million worth of machines for, uh, for, uh, What's Miners as well.
Can you break down some of those other elements of the deal?
'Cause I, I find it interesting to be packaged together because obviously the firmware component is something y'all have been working on for a long time, and it seems like the strategic investment and the, uh, commitment for future purchasing orders, um, is something that was kind of added into this deal to, uh, throw it all together.
Yeah. Um, so yeah, the, the firmware development cycle was like multiple years.
Um, th- this deal has been contemplated for a much shorter time, but like everything aligns so nicely, uh, into, into one, and it was great to like be able to come to the conference and speak to.
The strategic investment for us is just like, it's a stamp of approval from one of the like OGs in the space and a good, a good manufacturer.
It also aligns us strategically, so it doesn't necessarily come with commitments from MicroBT to support our business in a certain way, but having a, a stake in Luxor obviously is, is good in aligning our incentives.
At the same time, the machine purchase, like key theme I think on block space right now, is that everyone's pivoting to AI. Like where's the demand for machines?
Who's buying $100 million worth of equipment right now in today's like bear market? Um, I think we have a, a unique buyer universe across not, not just like private companies in the US, but also international.
We're doing a lot of work in Latin America. We ta- we've talked about previously on the pod. Um, and so yeah, the goal is for us to kind of help push, uh, MicroBT to, to our clients that are looking to expand.
Um, MicroBT is doing a lot of unique structures, things like hosting and, and selling at the same time.
So we're able to kind of package that with some of our finance offering and, um, give a few, uh, clients in our universe a unique, uh, opportunity there. You, you mentioned that, uh, you...
Who, who's gonna be buying $100 million worth of machines in the current market environment?
And I can't help but look at this deal in context with some others that have come out recently, uh, in the sense that it seems like the OEMs and their closest partners are really kind of starting to consolidate and like plant flags in the ground.
You know, we've seen, uh, we're gonna cover it on the show l- later today as one of our news items, but Canaan is, uh, furnishing Tether hash boards.
They're gonna be building these rigs with their own control boards and other parts in this kind of, you know, collaborative release.
Um, I've also been talking to some Bitcoin miners here who work with Bitmain, and they say that right now they're like one of their biggest clients, so like Bitmain's really trying to keep those relationships close.
As we see these AI pivots really disrupt the ASIC market, and we see the largest buyers of public miners dry up, do, do you get the sense that a lot of these partners and specifically the ASIC manufacturers are really trying to, to consolidate these relationships and doing what they can to keep them close in this bear market?
Yeah. I, I think that's true. And like my, my framework for looking at it would be like it, it's multi-year.
A- and at least 12 months plus, like when you plan your foundry, your chip productions, your, your manufacturing runs, right?
So historically there's been a few billion worth of CapEx, let's call it three to five billion of machines delivered to the market every year. And so those manufacturers were expecting, you know, another big year.
2025 was great for them, certainly the first two quarters were. Um, and now we're at a place where network hash rate's down, what?
Two, 300 petahash since its peak, and that means that really there, there's not a lot of net new buying going on. There's a definitely a few miners that are still expanding fleets, but, but it's, it's the minority.
And so the manufacturers need to get creative in, in how they look at these structures, and a lot of them are moving down the stack. Like, let's go partner with miners where they are.
Maybe they don't have the capital expenditure for the machines today, so we can strike like a hosting deal and a sale deal or a, like a, a mine to own deal in which, you know, miners to a certain payback, ownership flip.
So I think all the manufacturers are, are just like in, in the position where they're like, "We, we can't just rely on our old business model. We need to find new ones."
And in light of that, I'm hearing here in Vegas, because I, I talk more to the, the Bitcoin developers these days, but sometimes I go to a mining thing and I talk to miners still.
The secondary market for these rigs is pretty active. The, you know, I feel like it always gets active during bear markets, but is, is there a different dynamic right now?
How does this change the game for the, you know, the OEM manufacturing machines? You know, what do you see happening in this bear market in the new versus used? A- and the...
I should have brought that up because they're actually like fully intertwined, right?
So like h- here we have like, call it a dozen or so publicly listed companies that have expressed interest in fully pivoting to the AI data center world and are gonna be selling their mining fleet.I, I personally think that's gonna take longer than some of those CEOs might say it will.
Uh, but let's say it happens over the next 24 months. Each of those companies is gonna be liquidating something like 20 to, in some cases, over 100,000 machines each, right?
And so basically every quarter there's gonna be like a big pubco that's, like, selling all of their fleet.
That's competing with the manufacturers trying to sell on the market too, because if you're a new bu- if you're a buyer of machines expanding your fleet, you're looking at what's the deal from the manufacturers and what's the deal that I can go get used machines for, and they're going head-to-head.
We worked on a pretty large, uh, sales mandate in Q1.
Um, went very smoothly, but I, I think a- as, as the quarters go on, it's gonna become more and more difficult for the pubcos to start moving their machines, because there's really no natural buyer of that level of machine.
So we've approached a few of them to try and, um, structure, like, more, um, thoughtful sales processes. A trickle r- A trickle rather than a flood perhaps? Yeah. Think, think of it like an order book, right?
Like, so if you're trading on a thin market with not a lot of depth, right?
And there's only, you know, 10 or 15 BTC up and down on the bid and ask, and you try and go blast it with 25, what you do is you just take out the whole, uh, order book.
That, that's essentially how the ASICs trade, right? Like, we'll go to market and they'll be like, "Okay, I have demand for, you know, 1,000 ASICs at $8 a terahash, and 3,000 at seven, and 10,000 at six."
And, and if you wanna sell 20,000, you're basically just drawing the price down. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.
It's been really interesting to see how the ASIC market's kinda had it, uh, its head turned over with all of the AI pivots. But Ethan, we'll let you go. Really appreciate you joining us, man.
And enjoy the rest of the conference, and best of luck with the M60 and M70s. Soon. [laughs] Soon. Thanks for having me on, guys. Thanks.
Okay, we're gonna put him in the backstage back there, and we're gonna pivot to our next guest. Adios, Ethan. Ciao. We are gonna pivot to our next guest, CEO of Lagos Finance, Jay Patel.
Have a slightly different setup here. I'm gonna bring him on here. Jay, welcome to the show. Jay, welcome. Hey, how you guys doing? Pretty good, man.
You know, it's been a fun week in Vegas, and, uh, getting to do some live shows is great. It's always nice to have you, uh, calling in. And we're gonna be talking about- Unfortunately couldn't make it this year. Yeah.
I d- I was a little sad that we couldn't do this one live, but hopefully next year. But- Act- actually, my... I have a question for you. Like, we're deep in the weeds, we're in the halls, we're talking to people.
Have you been paying attention to the conference, uh, from the internet, and what's your impression as a person who hasn't been attending but has been watching the public discourse and the videos from it?
I think the, you know, the very controversial points around, like, uh, the, the DOJ panel and, and those things have popped up. I haven't gotten a bunch on my feed. Um, you know, I think it's...
The, the, the online discourse I feel like from the, the conference has definitely been focused around that, like, uh, what was it? Like, the FBI-DOJ panel, and then maybe some of the quantum, quantum discussions.
Um, and then, you know, there was some, some outrage on both sides about, like, the Jack Maller's quote regarding Saylor's financing strategy. So, uh- I actually didn't see this, so I'm a little out of the loop.
Can you catch us up to speed live? Yeah.
So I think, um, so Jack, and I, I don't think he meant this in any kind of like, uh, um, disrespectful way to the business that MicroStrategy's built, but just mentioned, you know, that MicroStrategy used to effectively borrow at 0% using the convertible bonds.
Granted, there's some equity pressure, and now they're borrowing at 12%. And so clearly, like, as the business is scaling, the cost of getting the capital to buy more Bitcoin has gotten higher.
Um, and you know, they're gonna need to think about creative ways to bring that down over time. Um, I think that outraged some of the strategy maxis, for lack of a better term.
Um, but I think it, you know, carries with the topic that we talked about previously, which is just that, like, all of these Bitcoin treasury companies are gonna have to find some unique way to buy more Bitcoin without paying more and more interest.
Um, it's great that Stretch pays 11.5% now, but I don't think even Saylor wants to keep paying that much forever. So yeah. Yeah.
It was interesting to see some of the back and forth about, you know, uh, where people were attending talks, because there was this one tweet.
People said, "Oh, no one cares about treasury companies," but Saylor's talk was packed. I was talking with Charlie, it's like, well, of course.
Like, that's, you know how many strategy fanboys and Stretch fanboys there are at this conference? Like- Yeah, the ca- the dial-in Kash Patel, uh, [laughs] talk was empty- [laughs]...
and the Saylor room was packed to the gills. Obviously people wanna buy this product. Yeah. Or at least enough people to fill a room do. Yeah, for sure.
But anyway, we'll, we'll leave the, the treasury stuff, uh, by the, by the wayside. Jay, we wanted to get you on to get some thoughts on the fallout of the Kelp DAO hack.
Now, we, we kind of talked about this on our last segment as well. It was still fresh.
But this, this whole thing has really kind of cascaded into what, what's becoming kind of a governance crisis for DeFi, and a, and a huge, uh, delegitimizer I think for a lot of these platforms that are promising, you know, decentralized finance.
So, uh, Jay, can you just give some of our audience a quick rundown of some of the fallout we've seen from the Kelp DAO hack?
And for some context, this DAO called, this DeFi platform called Kelp DAO was hacked for 290, like, 3 million I believe of staked ETH that was then deposited into other lending protocols like Aave and Compound.
That staked ETH is just a synthetic ETH, and the actual backing for it, the hackers didn't get. So it's created this problem where you basically have, uh, fake collateral on these lending protocols.
And so, well, Jay, what have been some of the knock-on effects of this hack that you've seen, and the, the most salient ones? Yeah, for sure.
I think the, the big ones are broadly the L2s, the Ethereum L2s, and then Lido, which is the operator of staked ETH and liquid staked ETH. Um-And I think the, the, the reason being, one,
early days, you know, I think, uh, in folks who haven't kept up with it, recently it seems like they've put together enough donations plus loans.
I think they're a little cagey about what's a donation and what's a loan, but enough Eth to kinda fill the hole across, uh, Aave and a bunch of other kind of DeFi protocols and some private donations and things of that sort, and some recovered Eth that they stole back from the hacker on Arbitrum.
Um, but, but effectively I think the big exposures and the knock-on effects were, you know, quickly after the hack, Aave was very fast to make this whole statement about how they believe that the Kelp rETH on L1 is still fully backed and the exposure is limited to L2s.
Um, and I think the implicit statement there was basically like, "Hey, if you're a depositor on L1, you're good.
If you're L2 you're, like, subordinated to the L1," which is obviously, you know, um, I think the thesis on Eth has always been, oh, if I'm on L2 I get all the security guarantees of L1 with the cheaper gas and all the bridge tokens have the same rights, and clearly, like, the intention there was maybe that's not the case.
Um,
so a lot of these L2s, Arbitrum, Mantle, a few others, had to kind of step up and resolve this, otherwise, you know, who's going to participate on DeFi on this L2 if any time there's a hack they're basically first loss for folks on Ethereum core L1.
The other was staked Eth. You know, Lido staked Eth. Part of the reason they have such a massive TVL is what we talked about before, which is these folks that do looping strategies.
They borrow against their Eth, they buy staked Eth, they deposit the staked Eth as collateral and kind of loop that, um, and, you know, get more returns off of the Eth inflation from staking rewards.
If the Eth lending market collapsed, you know, the TVL for Lido staked Eth would definitely drop. Um, and so there was these kind of knock-on effects unrelated to people who were even doing anything with Kelp rETH.
Um, which is why I think this was a kinda situation where everyone was willing to put this 160,000 Eth together for the bailout. Um- Y-...
because if they didn't, you know, there would be some pretty serious consequences. Yeah, let's zoom in on that.
So there's this effort called United DeFi, and it's an effort for a recovery process to remediate this hack, and it's led by, I believe by Aave and then some of the other big industry DeFi leaders.
Well, what are your thoughts on this, and can you break down for our listeners exactly what's going on with this recovery effort? Like, what are the steps are they going to take to try to right this? Yeah.
So the recovery effort broadly is f- from my understanding a combination of loans, you know, primarily Mantle making a, a loan to DeFi United, and other participants just directly, you know, uh,
donating Eth to make the protocols whole. Essentially erase the bad debt. Um, what's interesting here though is, you know, A, there's the whole governance side of things.
All of these protocols, like, you know, they're saying that they're gonna be able to do this, and they likely will, but they'll have to have governance proposals that pass and there's probably gonna be some expectation of, like, "Okay, if I'm bailing out some users of a DeFi protocol, are we getting something in return?"
Um, you know, I think that's, that remains to be answered. The other is kinda this implicit, like, you know, I think some, some folks will take the stance that, "Hey, I wasn't a depositor in these protocols."
You know, if I'm, like, a holder of Arbitrum or, you know, any of the other protocol treasury tokens. Um, like, why are we bailing them out, and isn't there some moral hazard?
Like, if we're just gonna keep bailing out every DeFi hack, then of course these people are going to deposit in these vaults at extremely low rates. Um, and does that set a good precedent for the industry?
Uh, it's almost like a, you know, we're, we're kind of looping all the way back to why Bitcoin and, you know, to some extent the rest of decentralized finance started in the first place.
[laughs] Well, it is interesting, 'cause Charlie and I were talking about it before the stream, 'cause we were thinking through, okay, this DeFi United's gonna get together, they're going to pool to...
They're gonna take loans and pool together assets and take on risk to try to unri- unwind these staked Eth positions. W- who, but who gets to keep, you know, who gets to keep the bag when all of this is done, right?
Like, do you- Th- there's Eth underlying that is still staked that there was, like, the, the liquid token was issued- Yeah, and like-... and that's what was stolen.
So I, like, at some point, like, when does this, when do the, when does this come back to the underlying staked Eth asset? Yeah, like, do the K- do the Kelp DAO users get made whole?
Do the companies, uh, orchestrating this bailout, are they gonna keep a piece? I mean, to your...
Uh, just kinda speaking to your point, this does create a kind of philosophical quandary and, and a huge governance issue for DeFi. Yeah, for sure. And then th- there's the other aspect, you know, which is, like,
if this ba- if this hack were bigger, right, if the exposure were two or three times this size, then, you know, these treasuries might not have been able to even cover the hole.
Um, like, to some extent they're fortunate that it was only the $280 million of exposure. But yeah, whose obligation is it to kinda cover this hole?
Obviously it kinda makes sense for Aave and, like, the Aave protocol treasury, because even though they weren't the ones that got hacked, they were supporting this as collateral, and if they don't do the bailout then basically, you know, everyone's gonna exit Aave and then, you know, the, the, the value of the protocol will go down.
Um, but for these L2s, like, it, it is a, you know, it's a, like a, a, yeah, you know, like a philosophical moral quandary. Like, w- who, who deserves bailouts and who doesn't?
You know, once you start bailing out people, there's an expectation that, you know, if, uh, if you're gonna bail out a $280 million hack, maybe there's a $20 million hack next, hack next week.
Do they deserve the bailout, and on what terms? And yeah. Jay, this has been, uh, really fun. I've gotta run to go bring up our next guest, but Charlie's got a few closing questions. I got one last question.
Have a great week, man. Okay. Is this the end of looping as we know it? Looping's been, like, the, the secret industry-wide hack.
Is this the end of looping your DeFi yield?Yes, and I think primarily not in the ways that people are thinking.
So first, I believe that if DeFi wants to grow, they need to attract more institutional capital, and institutions are not going to underwrite massive unbounded EVM smart contract risk, right?
They want auditable contracts.
And so there's one aspect of this, which is that institutions are not gonna deposit into these massive pooled markets where, you know, your collateral is being used to be lent to someone else so that they can do a looping trade.
Like, that's just not realistic. But the other reason I think is that DeFi broadly found itself in this weird local maxima where you wanna get more and more TVL, and what's the easiest thing to attract?
It's these people looping on token emissions basically. Like, that's what staked ETH is. Um, and to some extent you can keep doing that, but then you need to attract capital from outside the circular economy.
You need to get, you know, people who wanna borrow against their Bitcoin to do things in the real world or bring other assets on chain.
And these kind of things require better primitives and different primitives than the ones that looping, you know, these kind of looping-driven decisions enable.
So I think we'll see a shift towards, you know, Morpho's isolated markets.
Um, I think we'll see a shift towards, you know, institutions looking for, you know, either whether it's via DLCs that Lagos is building or other solutions, kind of isolated risks so that they can get the benefits of non-custodial and trustless finance without, uh, you know, this, these kind of protocol risk.
But I, I, I do think that we might have seen the peak of looping. Um, and I, you know, there's,
like, the, the level of leverage in the space, particularly just to turn a, you know, a 2% or 3% staking reward into 10% or 12% was, was kind of crazy.
Okay, so this hack happened, I forget, like, it seems like two weeks, over two weeks ago. Um, and it just, the, the story keeps going on. It's still top of mind.
It's been a while since we had, like, a crypto DeFi story that was this top of mind for this long. Um, my last question is what happens next?
I don't know, like, what's the next tactical couple steps in this, like, hack remediation, patching the holes of the DeFi ecosystem? What do you think happens next over the next few weeks?
Yeah, I think there's, there's, uh, you know, the recovery efforts, which are still very complicated. You think about, oh, they have all this ETH that they're gonna make people whole with.
Well, these protocols are all, like, semi-decentralized.
You know, they're, like, decentralized, but there's, like, multisig upgrades and things that they could do, but they actually need to find a technical path to kind of erase the bad debt and make everyone whole.
But then there's also, you know, if you want to attract incremental users after this, what are you going to do?
So I think these protocols are going to need to start competing not just on the returns that they provide, but also the risk.
Like, what are the decisions this protocol is making so that my dollars won't end up lost like the 280 million that were prior?
Um, so I think that, that will be the primary focus for these protocols is, like, how do you differentiate not by the massive APYs you can pay out and the looping incentives and whatever else, but how do you keep people's funds safe?
Um, because at the end of the day, you're gonna want to attract more capital that's not currently on chain. There's only so much TVL that you can kind of invent out of thin air.
Um, and so, yeah, I think risk will become top of mind, whether it's by setting more limits, more security around bridges, um, and, you know, may- maybe, maybe it is a shift to, um, you know, something that has kind of more auditable features and, and less kind of unbounded risk.
Jay Patel, thank you so much for joining remote. We'll keep the, uh, we'll keep things locked down here in Vegas. Thank you for joining, and see you again next week. Take care. Adios.
Again, we are live from Las Vegas, so next, if you stick around, don't leave, we have BTC Inc. CEO Brandon Green on his way up to the Blockspace studio here at the Venetian. But before that, a word from our sponsor.
Don't leave. We're bringing in the head honcho of the conference here momentarily. Now a word from our clean, uh, from our, from our sponsor, CleanSpark.
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This is our proof of work. We are setting the standard for what's next. Learn more about the intersection of energy and Bitcoin at cleanspark.com. All right, y'all. Welcome back. Thank you for hanging in with us there.
We have got Brandon Green, the newly minted CEO of BTC Inc. It's not that... It's somewhat new. It's, it's, it's pretty fresh. Yeah, still, still fresh. Yeah. Still fresh. Yeah. So, um, tha- thanks for taking time, man.
I know it's super busy for you. Obviously y'all are running the conference, so we appreciate you carving out some time to hop on the stream.
But just to dive right into it, what are your thoughts and feelings about Bitcoin Vegas 2026? It just seems like the conference keeps upping the ante each year.
Um, no, no pun intended, but, uh, just curious how you're feeling about this week. Yeah, we were all in on this conference, so, uh- [laughs]... keeping the gambling, uh, theme going.
No, uh, like we went into this event kind of being like, okay, it's bear market.
Uh, you know, vibes will be a little more muted, uh, we'll be a little honed in on kind of, you know, fixing problems, solving, you know, issues that have come up in the past bull market, et cetera, et cetera.
It has not felt like a bear market conference. It has felt very fun, very high vibes. I feel like all the right people are here.
Uh, the, you know, people that are most upset about the conference are the ones that secretly have FOMO and are staying home. And so it's, it's been like a fun-Uh, experience.
Uh, and, and it's, you know, every year it's just great to see everybody. Uh, and I feel like, you know, this is at least the one place where, you know, kind of everyone across the industry's gonna be there.
You get to meet up with old friends. So it's been, it's been really fun in that way too. I'll remark that, um, the hall conference is absolutely popping off this year.
I don't know if it's, like, the Venetian and the, you got the more open layout, but, uh, I cannot make it through the halls without, like, 10 minions stopping me. [laughs] Yeah, no, it is fun.
Like, I, I think that's, like, something that has emerged this year.
It wasn't really a thing last year, but yeah, I was, I was actually telling Colin on the way up here, just, like, you walk through, there's all sorts of people you know, there's random people you don't know too, it's, like, a fun vibe of all of it.
But, um, yeah, I mean, you know, it's like these, these bear markets, even though it doesn't feel like a bear market here, it's still this moment where you kind of get to just, like, see everyone, the egos are down, everyone's just happy to be here and, and, you know, uh, if the, the price maybe hits 80K, then, you know, that's even more fun.
So, um, yeah. Yeah, the, I think this area, this venue is, is particularly suited for those hallway conversations. There are all these little honeycomb hallways, you know, all around- I get lost...
where people can just- Like, I can't- Yeah... actually escape the whole conference. I don't know how to leave the whole conference.
[laughs] Yeah, and well, and going back to what you were saying, this has really become a conference where, I mean, people obviously come here to get deals done, but it's also a way for people to connect with industry friends and really kind of keep fostering those relationships, and that's one thing that I think is incredible about it.
You have so many people here. You, you, you're walking down the hallway and you're bound to just get caught up, especially if you work in the industry for a while, just with just a bunch of random side conversations.
And o- on the note of attendance, I, I don't know if you can answer this, last year, I believe the tally was r- somewhere around 30,000. Um, we wrote about it in our newsletter.
Curious what it's gonna clock in at this year. Y- yeah, so I, I told Colin before this, I actually can't answer this question- [laughs]... 'cause we're a public company now.
Uh, we have to, like, file public filings now to, to say these kinds of things, so, uh, but he told me he was gonna ask me anyway. So yeah, can't say. Uh, check out the, the Edgar filings. Woo. Public company stuff.
Uh, and but, uh, it's been a great event and, you know, turnout's been fantastic.
Yeah, I will say, at least from what I've seen in terms of turnout, for it being a bear market, like, a good presence both from the retail and, you know, Bitcoiner enthusiast side and from companies this year.
And i- it w- w- I mean, a- and on the note of the bear market, like, obviously Bitcoin Magazine and the Bitcoin Conference has a strong brand presence. People want to come to this conference.
But you do have to think about, uh, structuring a conference different in a bear market versus a bull market, obviously.
What are some of the hardest challenges and considerations that y'all had to go through when devising this conference? I know that's, you know, it's probably like a laundry list, right?
But, like, what are some of the ones that pop out? Yeah, we should just name all of the controversies we've just barreled through, like, full steam ahead.
Uh, no, I mean, that, that is the thing, is, like, um, a lot of conferences, and I'll say this about, like, conferences broadly, not even in this space, is like, you know, there's a, um, um, there's an advantage to sort of planning out the content way in advance because you can lock in the speakers, you lock in the programming, you can get the agenda out.
Everyone knows what's happening. You get to build hype around that. It's fantastic. We don't do that. Uh, we basically wait till the very last minute to get the agenda out because Bitcoin's always changing.
There's always new stuff coming on. There's always new speakers we gotta pull in.
Um, and there's so much, uh, attention and excitement around the event that, you know, some of the biggest speakers don't confirm until just a couple weeks out. And so, um, yeah, we, we try and stay on topic.
Um, there's been obviously a few different topics we've had to lean into heavily this year. Uh, I won't say the Q word, but, um, you know- Say it... y- yeah, so, so I'm not gonna say it. I'm not gonna say it.
[laughs] You're welcome. Um, so but yeah, I, there's just, like, there's all these different topics, all these things people care about.
Um, obviously, like, the Coding Country day or Policy day, uh, there was a heavy angle on Free Samurai, freeing the developers.
Um, that was something that, you know, it, it was obviously it's been an issue for, for years now, but, um, it's something that really built in momentum over the past, like, two weeks leading into the event, um, which is awesome.
But that's, you know, sometimes I feel like people don't understand, like, what our game is here.
Like, that's our goal, is, is if we can use the conference to build momentum around freeing the developers, like, we've done our job, right? You know, we, we, that's what we did with Ross, you know?
Like, we wanted to do that again. And so, uh, it's been, like, a, a cool experience getting to see that sort of organically build.
Um, and, and, you know, hopefully we can ride some momentum to make something happen there.
Um, and, and yeah, but needless to say, and I know I'm rambling, it is, like, you got to really lean into what's going on in Bitcoin in the moment in order to build these agendas and, um, it's not an easy task.
Okay, so I've lost all my money in Vegas, so we have to leave. We have to go somewhere else. You guys just announced we're going back to Nashville. Little more, uh, it's a, how do I say?
Little more family-friendly of a town, you could say. [laughs] Uh, tell me- Well, brother, go to Broadway at, like, at, at 10, 10 PM on, man.
Oh, b- yeah, well, I'm not a, I'm not a, I'm not, I don't get invited to many bachelorette parties. No, uh- [laughs]... tell me about this, uh, tell me about the Nashville, uh, return.
Yeah, well, so, you know, first and foremost, Nashville's home for us. Uh, Nashville's where Bitcoin Magazine is headquartered. It's, uh, it's home for me personally, Colin.
You know, uh, uh, we've, we love Nashville, and I actually think that there's a lot of aspects of Nashville that just fits so well into the Bitcoiner ethos. Um, it's a lot low pressure fun.
You know, you don't have to dress up and, and show up and be seen and all this kind of stuff. You just get to hang out with people you love, uh, have a good time, drink a beer, dance to some songs, listen to some music.
It's a, it's a fun town, and then it also has fantastic infrastructure to throw an event. It's easy to get to. Um, you know, it's, it's one of the most centrally located, uh, places for someone to drive to.
Um, so, you know, all the people that just hate jumping on planes, this is the easiest event to get to, uh, for, for a lot of reasons. And so it's, uh, w- we love doing it in 2024.
Obviously, we-Uh, did some fun things in 2024 to make it ex- extra special. Uh, we'll see what we can cook up next year, but yeah, we are so excited to get back to Nashville. Yeah, I'm really stoked for, for that, man.
Obviously, I mean, I'm biased as a Tennessean and a Nashvillian, but I do think it's a really good town. I assume it'll be in the convention center again. Yeah, back in the convention center.
I mean, and that's perfect because if you want to... I mean, one of the things that's really nice about The Venetian in Las Vegas is you can do everything in the casino.
And so there's a really nice element to where the conference lets out and all your happy hours are, like, within walking distance in the facility, right?
I think Nashville has the same thing, a little more open air, though. You can go from the convention center to Broadway. You know, you can go, uh, to Second Ave.
You can even, if you wanna do some stuff more low-key, you can hop over to East Nashville super easily, and it's like- You just had to plug East Nashville [laughs] I had to plug East Nashville, dude.
I, you know, if y'all are going to the conference next year, definitely check out East Nashville for some good eats and some, uh, uh, some, uh, bar night, uh, hopping, uh, after the conference.
But, uh, you know, when I think about, when I think about going back to Nashville and just where y'all have been for the conference. So for those of you, a l- a quick, some quick BTC Inc.
history, um, from an erstwhile reporter at Bitcoin Magazine. The first Bitcoin conference was in a glorified parking gar- garage in San Francisco, one of the best conferences I've ever been to. Freaking loved it.
It was really bold at the time. Company took a big risk. 2020 hit. Uh, COVID happened. Y'all couldn't do it in San Francisco again. Uh, shelved the conference for a year and then made a bold decision to go to Miami.
Uh, I just, I still remember the hit pieces, you know? There were so many articles. The super spreader event. The super spreader event. Yeah.
'Cause it, and it was, it was one, it was the biggest Bitcoin conference ever at the time. Mm-hmm. Um, and so, and it was right in the middle of COVID.
Super refreshing though, because it was, like, people willing to get out and have fun and, and do in-person events.
But it was controversial for certain people, but in a lot of regards, just cemented Bitcoin Magazine and BTC Inc. as a place for these conferences going forward.
Y- yeah, you know, that, that event was also, uh, like, peak hall monitor era of, like, media, where, you know, their whole job was just to, like, monitor the fun you're having and make sure everyone knows that these people are having fun and it's bad.
Um- [laughs]... and, and I remember, like, the New York Times piece on that.
Uh, the, I think the final line of it, maybe it was a Rolling Stones piece, I forget which one, uh, you know, they, they went and interviewed, uh, a, like, dancer from Eleven, uh, you know, just to, like, ask her what she thought about the conference and, you know, she, like, shrugs.
She's like, "It's taking over." [laughs] Like, that's how they ended it, you know? And it's like this, uh, I don't know, man. The, the- Oh, yeah, people were coming and spending money. [laughs] Yeah, yeah.
It, it's a, that was a special event.
Um, and you know, like, one thing that I do love about the Nashville venue that it's hard to do in Miami Beach, it's hard to do here in, uh, Vegas, is to, like, build a little more grunge to it, a little more, um, flow to it.
'Cause, because these, these venues are so built for this, that it's all just plug and play and it's, you know... I think it's a little sanitized, right?
And what I liked about SVN, what I liked about Mana Wynwood in Miami, uh, what I love about Nashville is you have sort of the venue where the expo hall is, some stages, and then you can just bust straight out and, like, have a fun experience on the town.
And, um, and that's what I'm excited to get back to. You can really interact with the city, for sure. Well, I was gonna throw a curveball question. Shoot. Uh, and you, you may have to 8-K this or something. I don't know.
Okay, so I was ha- I was, uh, we, we've organized a small 200-person conference a couple weeks ago. Um, so I'm thinking about, from a conference organizing perspective, how you budget and everything.
I was talking to somebody, I think a local Las Vegas person, and they were like, "Well, you know, the Las Vegas mafia is real. Uh, it costs more than you think to throw an event."
Um, is there anything you can comment about that direction? 'Cause they were saying, like, you know, there's some pipers you have to pay along the way perhaps.
I, I don't think the Las Vegas mafia is publicly traded, so, uh- [laughs] No, uh, uh, it, it's, it's really, like, we haven't had that issue, uh, at all.
What we do have to run into is, especially in these, like, highly set up, uh, conference towns, is it's all union labor.
Uh, you know, you kinda have to go through the right contract or contacts in order to, uh, get the people who build this thing.
I mean, when you look at an event of our scale, you're talking about hundreds on hundreds of people that are in the background helping make sure this event is successful, from the catering, to the AV, to the security, to the production, you know, build out, to the tear down.
I mean, it's, it's a massive effort to get it all built up and tear- torn down and, and, uh, facilitated. And so, you know, like, all of those things for sure, like, cost money. There's just no way around that, you know?
It costs money. Uh, it costs money everywhere, but, you know, it, once you get into towns like this, yeah, it's very unionized. It's even more expensive. There's all these rules.
Uh, it's just something you have to deal with. But, um, you know, uh, we're, we're used to that at this point.
So as a closing question, Brandon, going back to my ramblings about the history of the conference, you know, y'all been all around. You've done it in a bunch of different cities.
It- it's gone from a conference of, like, 2,000 people to, you know, at its peak, you know, last year, over 30,000.
When you reflect on the growth of the conference, what, what do you think about in terms of what it means for the trajectory of the company and where you wanna see the conference grow in the future?
Yeah, it's great question. I mean, when I think about the growth of the conference, I think it really just maps the growth of Bitcoin.
Um, and, you know, the, the whole reason we do this is to try and move Bitcoin forward.
You know, I tell the team every year, it's like, uh, if we can take every single person who comes to this conference and bring them one step further along their Bitcoin journey, wherever they are, you know, to the most expert Bitcoin technical folks, all the way to people who literally heard the word the first time when they walked in the building, we want everyone to fall a little further down the rabbit hole and, um, and you know, in that way sort of push Bitcoin forward.
And so, you know, when I look at our growth, I think it comes from us authentically wanting to do amazing things for Bitcoin.And, and then just mapping to Bitcoin's growth.
And so, you know, when I look at, like, where we've come from, I really just look at, like, how far Bitcoin's come. And, and, you know, to our very first event in 2019, um, that was the middle of the Civil War.
[laughs] Really, it was like right at the end of the Civil War. Uh, uh, you know, Bitcoin Cash had lost handedly. They were fighting with Craig and BSV at that point. Uh, Lightning had sort of just really gone main net.
Um, and we wanted to just sort of repair the community, give people a place to, to go have fun again and, and connect, and be Bitcoiners. And, um, and I think Bitcoin at the time was maybe, I don't know, $3,000?
It was, um... It, it, it made, actually- 6,000... it, it made- Oh, it pumped during that event... yeah, it, it pumped above, it was the, the fake summer pump above- Yeah. Yeah, yeah... yeah, yeah. Went up to t- 12 or 13.
Yeah, that's right. I bought a bunch of mining rigs at the p- at the top of that. [laughs] That was a very expensive summer for me. Congratulations, yeah. Thank you. Yeah.
Uh, th- this is why, you know, you don't buy the Bitcoin mining rigs, you just buy conference tickets, and it actually saves you money. I should... How do I trade conference tickets? Can I [laughs] trade- Yeah...
like, a Liquid Conference ticket, you know? Yeah, yeah. Four, four tickets equals one ASIC. [laughs] So, uh, that, that's the current exchange rate. No, but, uh, uh, yeah, it, it... That was a crazy summer.
Uh, we did, we did bounce back hard. Um, but yeah, I mean, I just think back to, like, that time, and then, you know, we had obviously to go through COVID.
But then, uh, we had El Salvador in 2021, we had, uh, you know, sort of the beginning of the institutionalization of the space, you had the mining industry really take off, uh, around then.
Um, and i- it's just, like, the meteoric growth of Bitcoin, not just from a price perspective but, but from a fact that it is impacting every single major institution or vertical of the, the global economy at this point.
And, and sometimes in small ways, but, uh, in some way. And I, I think that that is just a, an amazing, amazing thing to think about as you take a step back and just look at how far we've come.
And, and so, you know, when I look to the future of this event, um, you know, maybe it's Bitcoin 2035 we'll do on the moon, uh, you know, at, at some point. Maybe, maybe a Mars colony, uh, Bitcoin conference.
Um, but yeah, I mean, we're gonna be there as humanity moves forward using Bitcoin as, as its money. Brandon Green, thank you so much for taking time- Thank you... out of your busy day to join us, man. Appreciate it.
Thank you, man. Get back out- And congratulations on the conference, man, seriously, great job as always. Thanks so much. Thank you. He's gonna go- Honored to have you guys...
he's gonna go keep the wheels on the bus, so you are free to go. We're gonna keep on with our stream. Thank you, guys. Thanks, Brandon. All right.
And before we move on to our stories for the week, quick word from our sponsor, Luxor. This episode is brought to you by Luxor's Commander Bitcoin miner management software built for enterprise operations.
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All right, Charlie, I guess we'll close with news, the Tether stuff, because I think maybe we'll just spend the next five minutes or so riffing on our thoughts on the conference kind of as an add-on- Yeah...
to that segment. So I mean, what's been your biggest takeaway? I know you, you said you, like, haven't really been in the conference very much. But the, like you said, the hallway conferences are the conference, right?
It's part of the experience. Yeah, so, um, it's funny, I feel the people who are online who are not at the conference actually get a better sense for what the conference is like just by they're able to watch the talks.
I haven't watched a single talk. Um, I've mainly, uh, walked the, the floor of the conference twice now, the booths, um, and just chatted with a bunch of people. I would say, like,
the main thing about this conference is that everyone is here, and because of that, it is the best place to have that once-a-year touch point with someone you don't typically get face time with, and it happens organically in the hallway.
So my assessment of the conference is I heard all these people saying, "We're not gonna go," or that, "This conference is cooked," or, like, "It's a has-been."
Um, maybe there's a different take on programming or, like, vendors, but as far as, like, who's at the conference in the hallways who I'm talking to, it could be 2020, it could be 2021, I'm having the same, uh, very important, like, useful, productive conversations, uh, just, uh, with the people who I've known for years now in the industry.
So, um, it's kind of, it's like a, it's like a mainstay touch point. As far as, like... As far as, like, some specific takeaways, I thought that, you know, Brandon talked about it just a moment ago, the Samurai topic.
And the, the Samurai, uh, the Free Samurai, uh, rally is, uh, very popular among the plebs. I, myself, uh, su- you know, support the S- Free Samurai, you know, movement.
But it was kind of interesting because there's the viral video of Kash Patel calling in to an empty crowd on the first day.
Um, and this was a point of contention for, uh, the Free Samurai people because they're like, "Why are you having the, you know, you know, one of the guys here-" The, the director of the FBI guy- Director of the FBI...
who's part of the establishment that's putting these developers behind bars. Yeah.
I, I saw those view, like, okay, this was really interesting 'cause I, you know, I'd been a little bit removed from the online discourse on this. Uh, w- what are your, what are your takes on this?
I mean, I, my takes on this are a few things. I think one thing that the Bitcoin Conference does really well is, like, it does play-A lot of sides and keeps a lot of allies.
And, and some people, you know, uh, spurn them because they think they're not pure enough or maximalist enough. That's fine.
I don't think that actually, you know, all of the boycotting of the conference, like, ultimately doesn't, didn't matter.
Like, all the companies that I would want at a conference if I were running this are here and they're sponsoring. Yeah, all the companies are here. That- That's, like, something...
A lot of the people say, like, "Nobody's coming." Like- Can't tell. Yeah. I, yeah. All the companies are here. And I, I... It didn't seem like...
I'm sure that they had to, uh, have some give or take and some leeway on their sponsorship packages, right? 'Cause it's not a bull market, but all of the big companies that have sponsored in the past are here.
The exhibitor's place is packed. So, I mean, on the one hand, you know, obviously the BTC Inc. has a close relationship with the Trump administration. Trump came to speak at Bitcoin 2024 in Nashville.
Um, they've had Eric Trump. American Bitcoin announced their launch here last year.
You know, they have always kind of kept that relationship close, so I think, you know, having Cash on is just another thing of, like, how can we get a high-profile person in politics to our conference?
'Cause at the end of the day, negative or positive press, that's gonna generate press for your conference. It's just a smart move. It does kind of betray, though, this schism in the Bitcoin industry, right?
Where it's like as the suits come in, there are a lot of cypherpunk-minded people who don't want any of those people involved in what the, uh, i- in the conference and in this ecosystem and, and this culture.
And I understand where they're coming from to a point, but you also have to understand that they're running a business, and they're trying to make this conference as big and as good as it can be, and the headliners in the suits bring money and attention.
It- Right? Yeah. It's, it's really interesting because I would say that, uh, so the Bitcoin Conference is the big tent conference. There's even stuff that is, like, not really Bitcoin-focused which is here.
Um, there, you know, they put the less Bitcoin-aligned, uh, vendors and booths are on the edge of the, the expo room.
But what's interesting is, like, uh, I would say that among the different camps in Bitcoin, there are some which have irreconcilable differences, and yet everyone's here in the same room. I wonder how long that can last.
I would love for it to be able to last for forever, but, like, there are some, like, hard lines which people will draw. Yeah.
I mean, I think some people will drop, but ultimately I think that the, the Bitcoin Conference is a lot like Twitter. Like- No, like you can't leave.
[laughs] Well, the network effects are so strong at this point that, and I'm not saying they're doing this, but they could kind of trash the conference, and there would still probably be some interest.
Because this is the conference that people go to, not just to do deals, like I was saying with Brandon, but to meet up with their friends.
And so, you know, uh, you c- you almost have this mind share that I think is going to be really hard to replicate, and the branding is so strong, you know? And, and I do- It has the network effect.
It has the network effects, and I will just, again, just to highlight that point, a lot of companies are still here.
The one question I really do have for them going forward, I saw a lot of Bitcoin miners sponsoring t- this year. Yeah. Like, CleanSpark did the energy stage. They did, uh, they had a huge booth.
They had a networking, uh, adv- uh, space too. I believe some other miners were also pretty high up in the sponsorships here. I wonder how many of those guys re-sign next year.
Like, how, how, uh, uh, is this, will this conference- Ooh... still be worth it for them?
And that's kind of one place that I'm at, because that's, that's a significant source of revenue for the conference are these kind of companies. That's a good angle, because all the miners are switching to AI.
This is not the AI conference. That's actually a notable thing that's lacking from this conference, is that there's very little discussion about AI.
There's like, you know, there's, um, you know, like, payments rails, and there's like, uh, you know, payment protocols discussion, but it's mainly, like, developer talk.
Um, as, as far as I'm aware, there's not much AI, like, platforming, even on the main stage.
Well, really 'cause there's, like, frankly not a lot of crossover to talk about unless you're a Bitcoin miner, and that's crazy, 'cause it's a core of the American Bitcoin industry.
It is, like, the c- backbone of the American industry, the American Bitcoin miner. And, uh, they're pivoting to AI. Where... Yeah, where does this core base go? Yeah, I'm really curious.
I think some companies like CleanSpark, they're still gonna keep a lot of Bitcoin mining, so they might still find value coming here, right?
But you have to wonder about, like, the Irons of the world, maybe the TeraWolfs, things like that. But anyway, overall, I thought it's been a really good conference. Um, there are things I love about Vegas.
I'm happy that it's not gonna be here next year. I'm also glad it's leaving Vegas. [laughs] I'll say, you know, I can only come here so- It's like- I can only fly into the desert so long. Yeah.
Also, it kind of feels like a forced marathon. You know, it's like you don't really wanna do it, but you know you're gonna have to run the Strip a little bit. [laughs] Bro, there's, there's too many screens in Las Vegas.
Yeah. There's not enough, like, cool, smoky casino joints. Well, this is the thing that I've been really disappointed in walking through the casinos.
There's no allure or romance to it, because it's all just Candy Crush slot machines. It's, yeah, yeah, get home, but, get, play Candy Crush on your phone. It's the same thing.
Yeah, exactly, and you go by the craps and the roulette and the blackjack tables, and they're empty. But anyway, we do not endorse gambling here- We don't. No... on the Blockspace Podcast.
Uh, except if it's on cryptocurrency. Yeah. [laughs] If you, except if you're trading shitters on Dexscreener. Okay. All righty.
Uh, we're gonna move on to our last item today, and the only news item, uh, this deal with Tether and Canan. But first, a quick word from our sponsor, Ligos. Hedge funds are getting liquidated. Is your Bitcoin safe?
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Okay, we got one story, one, like, news story, and it's obviously Tether related, so bear with us.Um, this is a story we also published, even though we're all on the road. We put this out.
Canaan and Tether announce that they are building a little collaborative ASIC, uh, build here. So let me get this up on the screen.
Ca- Canaan and Tether have a, uh, mining infrastructure collaboration that they just announced this week, and what this is, is Canaan is building hash boards for Tether, and then Tether is then taking those hash boards, and they are building the rest of the shoebox miner and adding on the control boards and other infrastructure.
I thought this was really interesting just in context of a lot of the stuff that we talked to Ethan about. And before we get into the nitty-gritty here, just a few more, uh, details from this.
Um, the order, I'm quoting directly from the Blockspace Media article here.
Uh, "The order follows a 2025 proof of concept project conducted under a framework agreement between Canaan, Tether, and ACME Swiss Tech, a Swiss R&D company." Otherwise pronounced ACME, like the Wile E. Coyote.
[laughs] Yeah. [laughs] Oh, it is? Oh, gotcha. Yeah, it's ACME.
[laughs] So the ACME Swiss Tech company, uh, they're the ones it seems like they, they build Bitcoin mining designs, so I'm assuming Tether worked for them and for things like cooling, um, and other infrastructure for these designs.
And, uh, it's specifically going to be an immersion-cooled mining system, so that's where the Swiss company comes in, helping Tether with some of the infrastructure and hardware for that.
And then Tether's gonna be bringing their own hash boards as well. Th- this is super interesting to me because it, it plays back... Oh, do you have the- No, I was just gonna say immersion. Yeah.
Like, everybody's doing water-cooled. Yeah, it's, it's super interesting to see Tether, uh, plant the flag in the ground for immersion.
I also really like this collaborative structure that they have with Canaan because it plays into what I was talking about with Ethan.
It seems like we've reached a point where the OEMs are starting to get really creative with how they're structuring deals and how they're working with some of their bigger clients.
'Cause what this reads like to me is Canaan's in a position where they're like, "Tether doesn't wanna just come in and buy our own machines. They don't wanna buy our air-cooled, immersion, or water-cooled models."
But they're willing to buy the hash boards and build their own rigs to spec for what they need it for.
And I think that if you were in a seller's market for ASICs, like we've seen, uh, basic- uh, obviously in every bull market, even in some bear markets, there was enough buying pressure from the public markets that it was still the OEMs a- and the manufacturers like Bitmain, Canaan, and MicroBT still had all the cards when they were negotiating.
Now they have lost their largest c- customer with the public miners. A lot of these guys aren't buying new machines.
As we were talking about with Ethan, the ASIC market has just completely turned on its head, so they're gonna have to work with these companies a little bit more.
And so I can't help but see this in conversation with the Luxur deal, with WhatsMiner, and some of the chatter I've heard from, um, the larger public and private miners that are at this conference who are saying, "Look, Bitmain is coming to us now, and they really are trying to keep our business," because all that deal flow that they're, they got- they were used to is dried up.
I mean, Ethan said the number, what, 3 to 5 billion annually in ASIC sales at the peak? Uh, and that it's clearly nowhere near that right now, at least for the new market. Yeah.
So, um, I think it's, it's equally interesting to me that it's Tether and Canaan and not Tether and MicroBT or Tether and Bitmain. Canaan is the smallest of the major Bitcoin mining manufacturers.
Um, you and I were trying to, like, r- uh, remember exactly what the more like breakdown of- Yeah... like rig makeup across the entire Bitcoin mining indus- or Bitcoin mining industry is.
It's like 80% Bitmain, 10, 15-plus percent MicroBT. And give or take 5% for Canaan. Yeah. Yeah. Ballpark. And, uh, so that's like the scale here.
So it's interesting, you know, Tether conspicuously does not have this deal with Bitmain announced or maybe even like working on it. So,
um, but Canaan's kind of, with their Avalon series, uh, I would say always- they've always have probably been one of the more like they've been a little more agile over the years. They've had- they've thrown-
they've, they've taken a little more risks, which makes sense 'cause, you know, if you're the smallest, you can try to gain market share through some, uh, clever, uh, you know, some clever pivots.
So this is really interesting. Um, this also on the back of Tether announcing their mining, their MDK, their mining development kit.
Which if you're not familiar, so I don't think we referenced it in the article, but like this is kind of a full stack modular, uh, ASIC management tool.
Sounds a lot like Foreman or like what Luxur's doing with Commander. Yeah, it's a little bit of a hybrid of... Yeah, it's- I think it's a hybrid. Uh, I don't think it's firmware, but it's like, uh, ev- everything but.
So, uh, also pretty interesting. Tether, the largest, probably largest private Bitcoin miner, uh, through their Electron, um, arm, and so they have the hash rate to demo all this stuff, to test it all out.
You know, I think if you've got, I don't know how public it is, but they've got many exahash, um, you- it gives you a lot of like leeway to take this partnership with Canaan and deploy that onto your own stuff at scale.
You don't have to get these other counterparties involved to be like, "And now we have this deal, and now we have to have somebody to run it." And you're like, "No, you have that all in-house."
So will be interesting to see them. Um, I mean, I assume that they've been r- I... Well, I talked to some Tether folks.
They have been testing their MDK internally for quite some time now, so this is a long time coming that they put it out. Yeah, I'm- I think you're right to point out it's interesting that they're doing this with Canaan.
I think maybe that speaks to it might be a little bit easier to work with one of the smaller guys because, you know, they, they really, really want to, uh, increase their market share, and they're maybe a little more collaborative.
But I do just- Yeah, Micree does not seem like a very collaborative person. [laughs] Yeah. You know, and I just wanna zoom in on that point one more time.
I, I w- bet we will see more of these types of deals over the next year.
You're gonna probably see more bespoke deals between the OEMs and the Bitcoin miners who are purchasing their equipment, maybe trying to build some custom stuff.
But I, I think we can leave it there, and then get back to the conference circuit.
But- We're gonna go back to the conference, make sure the wheels stay on the bus, and make sure that, uh, we capture all of the viral moments which are yet to happen today.
Otherwise, you can catch me on the Bitcoin Magazine live stream at 3:00 PM PST when I'm on the main stage hosting a panel. Otherwise, this show is brought to you by CleanSpark, NASDAQ ticker CLSK.
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