[rock music] Welcome to another Oklahoma Memo podcast.
My name is Ryan Welton, the founder and curator of Oklahoma Memo, a daily newsletter recap of all Oklahoma news that you can get in your inbox at 7:00 A.M. every weekday morning. And we've branched out now.
We're doing podcasts, and we're doing podcasts for the purpose of elevating the conversation and elevating what people know about in terms of topics that are super important.
And this one is really particularly important, and I am pleased to be joined today by Caitlin Beasley, the policy engagement manager at Metriarch, and we'll talk about what Metriarch is here in just a moment, and with Amanda Gaddy.
We're joined by Amanda, director of Women in Recovery's Parent Child Reunification Services at something called Family and Children's Services. And the topic today is about something called the Paths to Recovery report.
But before we talk about the report itself, I wanted to start as somebody who really before this conversation isn't familiar with the Paths to Recovery report or with Metriarch.
Let's start, Caitlin, with what, what is Metriarch and what, essentially, what, what do you do? Absolutely. We get asked that a lot.
Um, we are a research and policy organization that focuses on women here in Oklahoma, and really just we do research related to, um, their health, uh, and then we also track policy.
So whenever, uh, it's time for bills to be filed at the beginning of the legislative session, we're looking through all of those and, um, identifying the ones that we think would have a, could have a potential impact on Oklahoma women, and we're following them.
Um, but yeah, we, we develop tools so that folks can also, at home, that might not watch C-SPAN for fun, that they can follow along as well during session, um. You, you mentioned C-SPAN for fun.
You're speaking my language right there, especially that, that open caller. They used to have a guy, Brian Lab- Lamb in the morning, and you, you just never knew. "Well, independent from Virginia, what's your question?"
So yes. I love that. [laughs] So, um, you- did you mention nonpartisan? I think that's important. Any time I do a video like this, people will say, "What's the agenda here?"
The agenda is healthier women in Oklahoma, and healthier families by extension, and a healthier state. You know, it kind of all goes hand-in-hand.
But yes, we are nonpartisan, and what, there's a statement of research independence on our website that can give you a little more insight into kinda how we're funded and, and how we approach doing this kind of research, but definitely nonpartisan, no industry influence, nothing like that.
Before we get into the Paths to Recovery report, Amanda, uh, I, I had asked you before we started recording, what exactly is Family and Children's Services?
Would you mind telling the audience what Family and Children's Services is?
Family and Children's Services is a nonprofit based in Tulsa, Oklahoma, serving, um, Oklahoma natives for mental health needs, and but we cover addiction services, which is what Women in Recovery is.
We offer psychiatric services. We serve adults and children. Fantastic, and we're here to talk about something called the Paths to Recovery report.
Um, what inspired Metriarch to get behind and develop this report, and what's in it? And, and why should, uh, the audience out there maybe be interested enough to take a gander at it? Absolutely.
So, um, something that Metriarch does, we work with, with, uh, entities across the state that do a lot of different kinds of things in and around women's health.
And, uh, something that kept popping up was, you know, our, our infant and maternal mortality rates are not great. Um, and partners kept noticing that maternal substance use was affecting a lot of those cases.
Like, when you would dig in and look and try and find out, you know, why, wh- where, what could have prevented this death, you know?
So we started to kinda dig into it back in 2018, and then, uh, COVID hit, so there was a bit of a pause there as we kinda adjusted our, our priorities.
But then we came back to it, and what the report really is, is we went around the state and we talked to, um, women who have navigated substance use disorder in Oklahoma and the people that serve them, like, uh, Amanda here.
Um, we, we talked to... We really tried to dig into maybe some of the barriers to them getting the care that they need, you know, what, what really is going on.
And then for the second part of the report, we developed policy recommendations, so here's how the State of Oklahoma could do better.
And some of those recommendations are around, you know, maybe there are statute laws that need to change.
Some of those recommendations are more around funding or maybe what needs to happen in different clinical settings that might help.
Um, so it's a really robust picture of, you know, I think, how we could, how we could better serve, um, these women, their babies, and, and families. Um,
and the reason that I- we've been, any time we talk about this, um, trying to make sure we do it in conjunction with the programs that we want more of.
And so I think, um, the Women in Recovery project are, is, is that, definitely. Like, if we had that everywhere around the State of Oklahoma, um, this problem would be drastically improved.
As you did your research, were there any inspiring stories or trends that came out of this? And just, you know, I, I, as I told you before the interview, I'm the biggest layperson with this.
I am, uh, very much in discovery mode, trying to learn what this is all about. But what did your research show you? Were there anything, was there anything that was particularly inspiring or a light bulb moment?
I think probably the biggest conclusion that w- we came out of it with is what's happening right now is we're moving kind of in the wrong direction as far as our approach to this.
There are especially certain hotspots in the state where we've started seeing women being charged for crimes, um, for using a substance while they're pregnant.
They're starting to charge women with felony child neglect, and we're starting to see it amp up. And we know that if women are afraid to reach out for help when they're pregnant, they, they don't.
And so we end upIn just long term, it, it's worse for mom, worse for baby. Um, and we know keeping families together and getting mom in programs like Women in Recovery, that, that's what we need to happen.
A- and if, if we're incarcerating women for, for their mental health issues, you know, what are we really doing? [laughs] Okay.
And how do we expect that to- And I'm gonna segue to Amanda here real quick because, uh, if you're fearful of punishment for reaching out for help, um, then you're not gonna reach out for help.
But I just note here that, um, what Family and Children Services focuses on is more of a treatment first approach for mothers and baby. Why is that important?
I mean, I think it seems obvious to me you wanna keep families together, but I, I wanna hear it from you. Why is a treatment first approach important in this case? Yeah.
So the separation of moms and children is just not what's best for them. You know, moms need their kids, and kids need their moms.
And kids and children are going to thrive best when they're taken care of by their parents, if that's what's safe and appropriate to happen.
And so offering a safe alternative option to address when addiction is the main struggle in the family to, to offering that safe alternative option to address those addiction needs and being able to keep families together is going to be what's best for that family.
Um, to being able to help that family thrive together and being able to s- to stay together, being able to keep that connection and that bond between that mom and that baby, um, while that mom is receiving the services she needs to s- to, to get healthy and to, to treat her addiction, um, is what's best for that family.
Um, i- off- prison does not offer that option. That is not... They're not going to get the treatment and, and the services they need when they're going to prison. They're going to come out the same way that they went in.
Um, and that is not going to be what's best for that family.
Over the course of my journalism career, I've had the opportunity to interview folks like Jeffrey Dismukes with the Oklahoma Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services many times, and he often talked about the biggest challenge in this space just being awareness of what services were available.
I hope that this podcast and conversation can be a step in the right direction. But, uh, if, if you would, Amanda, c-
m- take this opportunity to just sort of, uh, maybe specify some of the, the services that are available just in case there's a mother who needs a little bit of help right now.
So Women in Recovery is for women who are facing felony prison charges.
So if a woman, um, is f- has been charged with a felony charge of some kind, um, in the Tulsa area, we serve Tulsa, women who have received Tulsa charges but also surrounding counties.
We are hoping to be able to expand to more rural areas. That's our next... We wanna be able to serve more. We've been able to drive down, um, prison sentencing in this area, in the Tulsa area, but we, we wanna do more.
Um, and so we're hoping to be able to expand into r- more rural areas. But, um, but we have also, we have a women's justice team, um, that is more on the front end of services.
So if you do not have that prison charge, that felony charge that will drive you to Women in Recovery, we do have the option of somebody who is just maybe struggling with the substance use that hasn't really gotten to that point where maybe their criminal charges, they've received criminal charges.
We do have the option for a woman to be able to reach out and receive services that way.
So if they can c- can get to Family and Children's Services and reach out to Family and Children's Services, we do have options for them to receive treatment and services, whether they're facing criminal charges or not.
Data point that I have here that, uh, caught me by surprise. Maybe I shouldn't be surprised. Oklahoma ranks second in the nation for pregnancy-related arrests and incarcerations.
Are there any misconceptions out there, uh, when, uh, when you face, that y- that you face when advocating for treatment first? I mean, do you have anybody pushing back? I ca- I think, you know, we've spent, man,
three to four years now going around the state and presenting this research to a v- variety of audiences.
Um, there was actually an interim study in 2023 where we were presenting to, I think it was on the house side, uh, criminal judiciary. And you know, I'm not, I'm not really...
I feel, I don't think it's difficult to understand why some people understand, you know, oh, um, sh- you know, this woman is pregnant and she's using drugs. She's trying to hurt her kid. She must be punished.
That is a, that is a sentiment that I think a lot of Oklahomans hold, and I think it's really rooted in a misunderstanding of what addiction is and how it functions wh- when, when you're suffering from it.
And so I know Amanda can speak much better to that, but, but I've seen that, that, uh, kinda conclusion that a lot of people come to, um, because I think we have a lot of high expectations for our moms, you know.
And if you're not, you know, able to just, you know, [laughs] get over your mental health issue because you're pregnant, you know, I, I think, I think, um, people have a hard time wrapping their heads around that.
Um, and I understand. It's, it's scary to think about, uh, kids being in danger. Um, but really the, the evidence is just so strong that treatment works so much better. Um,
yeah, Amanda, you c- you can definitely speak more to, you probably run into this presenting a lot. Yeah. I think one of the thing that we...
is that I think people are just so quick to judge that women struggling with addict- they're just criminals, they're addicts, and f- often forget that they were, th- they were victims first.
They, most people don't just choose to become addicts. That's not [laughs] something they wake up and just decide, you know, that they're g- they wanna be an addict.
Something has led them to that, and, and most often that's trauma. Um, they have been victims of trauma and abuse, and they've grown up in a cycle of incarceration and addiction.
Um, this is often m- a multi-generational cycle that has brought them to where they are. And, um-We forget that.
We forget that they have been victims themselves and, um, they, they've been caught in this cycle, and, uh, and we want to end these cycles. That's, that's what we're hoping to do, is to be able to end these cycles.
We, we don't wanna see people in prison. We don't wanna see people struggling with addiction and, and this drug problem to be a continuous thing that, that happens over and over again.
And if we have these options that are trying to treat people and end these cycles... You know, Women In Recovery, we, we deal with parent-child reunification.
We're, we're addressing this multi-generational, these, these generational, these, uh, this, this cycle that continues to happen.
And if we have these options that are trying to end these generational cycles, then why are we not promoting them and encouraging them and trying to stop this from being a future problem?
And so I, I, I, I just wish that we could see that there's these better options and these, these better things that will affect our future as well. Include services.
Like, and I always think of the metaphor of being on the airplane where, um, the, uh, the flight attendant says, "Hey, if oxygen is needed, you gotta bring that down."
And my wife and I, we always have the conversation, "Remember, you gotta have this first before a kiddo gets this. Because if, if mom's not taking care of herself, nobody gets taken care of."
And this is-- So that's really important, and that, that simplifies it for a guy like me to help me understand, and hopefully it helps other people understand. Nothing like this gets done in a vacuum, though.
Caitlin, could you talk to the collaboration that was really central to this work? Um, it wasn't just one person who put the Paths to Recovery report together.
There were probably lawmakers, nonprofits, community leaders all together for the launch. Could you talk about that just a little bit? Absolutely.
That's one of the most exciting parts of, of doing this work and, and being able to see the potential out there, you know? Um, so when we were putting the report together, we talked to OBGYNs.
Um, we talked to mental health professionals. We talked to people like Amanda who are running, um, programs that keep women out of prison after they're facing charges. We, we really tried to get a full circle view.
And then whenever-- And then we started talking about, like, to, uh, to our lawmakers too, and our policymakers, trying to figure out, um, kind of, you know, what, what the, what, what the thoughts were about this, um, under the dome.
And I think yesterday's event, and part-- I'm exhausted, so you're getting maybe a little bit of word salad here. But yesterday's event was, was-- brought all those people together and, and there were tears in that room.
There was a lot of conversation and brainstorming about how to tackle the issue, um, what, what the most important, uh, you know, next move is, you know? It, it-- we really started planning.
And so I think, um, it was just really exciting to see so many people who are passionate about this, who care about these women and these families, that are ready to do the work, you know?
We just need to make sure that we have the, you know, legal infrastructure and the funding, um, right now especially.
You mentioned, uh, the Department of Mental Health and Substance Abuse Services just had some major cuts that affect some of these programs that we know are working, so, um, that, that specifically help this population we're talking about right now.
So that's one of the most immediate things for me, is just making sure that, um, that funding gets backfilled and those programs, um, aren't suffering for it. No, so hey, all good. Word salad is my love language.
It's, it's [laughs] I'm all o- all over the place. But I, I'm also thinking while you're talking, I thought you mentioned an event. I, I failed to ask about the event. Tell us, what was this event?
We decided-- You know, we, we launched the report, and we were thinking, you know, "Where, where should we launch the-- like, have a physical event where we can really honor all the people that contributed to it and, and really get the conclusions of the report into the hands and minds of the people that we're h- we are hoping will read it and act on it?"
We're thinking, "Well, let's do it at the state legislature," you know? Like, let's do it where they, they make the laws, you know, and they debate the laws.
Like, that seems like, um, one of the most important places for, for this information to be.
So, um, we spent [laughs] the whole day before running around to everyone's office trying to, you know, hand them copies of the report and get them to come.
And then the event itself, we had several lawmakers that were able to make time, um, and a lot of our partners that had contributed to the report came.
Uh, Amanda with, uh, Women in Recovery and Erin with ReMerge, which is kind of like-- I look at you guys as like very-- almost the same program. You're just in Oklahoma City and Tulsa.
They brought, um, program participants and graduates that were, were-- had lived experience navigating systems and, and, and accessing, uh, amazing programs like Amanda's. And I mean, people were crying.
They were-- It was beautiful stories about just how, how that reunification and that hope that you're gonna get to, uh, you know, have your kid, raise them, um, how that keeps people in recovery and how, how it motivates them and changes their lives when, when they get, for the first time, um, help with, with their mental health issues.
So I don't know. It was-- I'm getting chills talking about it. It was a really amazing, um, event, an amazing turnout.
Just grateful for, for everyone that showed up and hopeful that that message and, and the, the planning, you know, really comes to fruition.
So for a report like this, and with all the collaboration that went on with this, Caitlin, is there anybody, whether it be a lawmaker or researcher, anybody in particular you'd like to shout out as a particularly helpful contributor to this report?
Absolutely.
So I think, um, the Tulsa Fetal Infant Mortality Review program, which is another mouthful [laughs], um, they were the ones that initially really flagged this, uh, this issue for us and, and were thought partners d- from the very beginning.
Um, I, I-- the Oklahoma Perinatal Quality Improvement Collaborative, or OPQIC, has also been a huge thought partner in just, uh, you know, framing the questions and helping us understand the issue, especially as we were trying to wrap our minds around, um, kind of the, the current status quo.
Um, Family and Children's Services, Women in Recovery was one of our major, um, partners in, in recruiting for, for folks to come talk to us, especially folks that have lived experience.
So those were really, like, the major contributors, but there were so many people, Ryan, that we talked to.
LikeIt would be impossible, and we could have a whole podcast of me just rattling off, like, all the people who made a major contribution.
So, um, I'm naming the major ones So for anybody who happens to watch this video or be listening to it, and they wanna support these treatment-first approaches that this report advocates for, and that Amanda, you advocate for through Family and Children Services, whether they're policymakers, healthcare providers, or just an average Joe or Jane out there, how can they get involved?
How can they be supportive? I think definitely, like, reading the report first, like wrapping your head around the issue I think is a, is a great start.
Um, and, and there is a list of, you know, the, the second half of the report is really a, a bunch of policy recommendations for what we, we as a state could be doing better.
Um, I think that's a good way to wrap your head around it. Um, and that's not just a shameless plug. I think it does help, uh, kinda contextualize stuff for you.
Um, and then I would say, you know, just getting to know your state representative and senator and so, so that whenever something comes up maybe that, that, uh, y- or, and having conversations with them about the things you care about, which hopefully include this.
Um, and I also think, and I'll let Amanda speak to this, but, um, you know, donating or volunteering for programs like Women in Recovery,
um, because there are, for most of, most folks, there, there are some entities in your communities that are doing some of this kinda work. So figuring out, um, what those programs are and, and supporting them.
Yeah, I would just add just as policies, just as, this is the cliche, but just as policies do come up, vote. Voting, voting matters, so just as those things do come up, that we are voting and, and showing our voice.
But also, if we do know people who are struggling with SUD, substance use, um, that we're encouraging them to seek help. I know it can be scary. People are scared.
People are fearful that kids are gonna get taken away or whatever that may look like. But we really are here. The people who are here doing the work, we really are here to help.
We are not, we are not here to catch people and, you know, trying to, you know, sneak, be sneaky or, you know, anything along those lines. We really are here to help people.
We want to bring people into health and healing and keep families together and, and do everything we can to bring healing and restoration to people, um, and to encourage people to seek help and, um, that there are people out there who really care and believe in people, um, and, and really do believe that people can change.
I really appreciate that. Caitlin, real quick, where can folks... uh, I'm glad to put a link to it in the show notes. Where can folks go read this report? Metriarchok.org, and, uh, yeah, you'll probably wanna
take a look at the link. Our name is still a little bit funny, but, um, it's, it's on our website, um, under, I think, publications. So, and then also all of our social media. Um, but that's probably the easiest way.
Fantastic. I'll, I'll make sure and add a link to it, uh, on Oklahoma Memo and in the, uh, the podcast notes in the YouTube description below. Viewers, thank you so much.
If this speaks to you, leave a comment here, like and subscribe to this channel, uh, and reach out to Family and Children Services if there's a need in your life, uh, or, uh, to Metriarch to view that report.
I really appreciate your time. Caitlin, Amanda, thank you so much. Thank you.
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