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[upbeat music] You're listening to the Oklahoma Memo podcast, the fastest way to get smart on Oklahoma news, politics, business, and sports. Welcome to the Oklahoma Memo podcast.

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My name is Ryan Welton, the founder and curator of Oklahoma Memo, your daily local news recap that hits your inbox six days a week at 7:00 a.m.

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And this is time for my weekly conversation with Democratic candidate for Congress, Jon Crescent.

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And we are also joined today by Democratic candidate for state superintendent, former El Reno superintendent, Craig McVay, uh, now a two-time guest on the Oklahoma Memo podcast. How are you gentlemen doing?

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Doing great, and I just really appreciate, Craig, uh, you joining us today.

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Uh, I think if we're gonna improve, uh, education in Oklahoma out of 50th, we definitely wanna start with putting the right people at the state, uh, Department of Education and superintendent, uh, h- and actually somebody that's been a superintendent.

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I've, I've been a big proponent of making sure that, uh, we have people that are, uh, in charge of our students that actually have been in charge of a school district before.

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I think that's extremely important, and I really appreciate you being here this morning, Craig. Thanks, Jon.

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Ryan, um, I just wanna tell you that, um, thanks for the invitation, uh, to both you guys, but also, um, thanks for the six days a week, um, where I can just go, uh, click on you and get an update, um, across the state.

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It's not, not regional. It, it... I mean, you are literally covering every, um, news, um, the, as it happens.

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Um, and you said six days a week, but as I recall, there's been a few times when you've had to bust in to get that seventh day in there, um, on, on a couple of Sundays where news was happening, and so I just wanna tell you thanks for that.

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And, and Jon, thanks, um, thanks for what you're doing, um, in your congressional district, um, to bring the truth up there because, um, a- as you guys are will- really well aware, truth in politics is sort of hard to find.

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And, um, so I really r- appreciate both what you guys are doing, uh, from the news media standpoint and, um, you know, getting that, getting your word out, Jon.

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Uh, I, I, I've been following you since the, the beginning and, um, I, I know, um, you're working your tail off up there, and so I appreciate that. Yep. And I appreciate you guys having me on. Thank you very, very much.

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Very, very kind words. And of course, it's not gonna be a surprise to anybody listening or watching that we're gonna be talking about education today.

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And Jon, you just came back from DC, uh, and you learned a lot about sort of how the federal government views things right now. Before we talk about Oklahoma, what did you take away from that trip? Yeah, I...

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The biggest thing I heard, and I went with the Oklahoma State School Board Association, along with Kansas and Nebraska, so three of the reddest states in the middle of the United States, uh, the traditional flyover country that some people will call, and, uh,

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we weren't happy with what's going on with education.

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And we listened to both Democratic, um, staffers a- and, and, and congressmen as well as Republicans, and I can tell you, it got a little heated when we had the Republicans come in because number one, they mentioned the word Heritage Foundation multiple times.

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They never said the words student outcomes or teachers. So our Department of Education is not focused on K through 12 education. They are...

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And the word dismantling of public education came across, but they are focused on charters, on vouchers, and the, the thing that we talked about the most was on, uh, career tech education as well as, uh, workforce development.

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And, and our, to our dismay, 'cause, 'cause most of the people going were school board or superintendent, uh, superintendents, school board members or superintendents.

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They, um, they were like, "Why aren't we talking about K through 12?"

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And they seem to be patting themselves on the back because the, the Trump administration wants to cut almost all of the funding for the Department of Education, and they were patting themselves on the back for just keeping the, the investments intact

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at the same levels, not improving, not holding more people accountable, but just, um, they weren't focused on how do we improve outcomes, how to get more money for IDEA, which is our s- for special needs students, which is a huge thing.

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We just had, um, a 12 and a half hour board meeting with Tulsa Public Schools where we actually voted against cutting special ed administration because we wanna make sure that our special ed is kept intact.

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You know, that w- if we're gonna cut, it's not gonna be from there. Um, Title I is for, for schools w- that are economically disadvantaged, which El Reno, uh, where Craig was, the, we're at 84%.

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You guys were at, like, 82% of your students that were economically disadvantaged. So this is a problem in urban and rural, even now s- suburban schools like Jenks, uh, Union.

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Uh, they have several Title I schools, and this money helps to bring in more, um, just resources for teachers, me- more resources for students, more counselors. Uh, again, important investments.

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Title II, we got a lot of students that are, that are, um, coming that have l- language services that they need. 40% of Tulsa students are, um, multilingual learners.

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So again, just having these federal dollars, which although they only make up 13% of the, the, the education budgets,

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it's really important when you're 50th in education that every single dime is going to these local school districts to be able to decide where they need to go.

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And my thing is, hey, we, we don't wanna go backwards to where we were in the Biden administration on the Department of Ed-We wanna actually reimagine it to where it's actually investing in, in local schools, getting more dollars to local schools to be able to help support teachers and support students.

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That's what the federal government should be doing.

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Just like with housing, just like with healthcare, it should be getting more dollars to people to be able to use, um, and more accountability, and all I'm seeing is less accountability, um, and cutting funds and then putting more on the state of Oklahoma, which is barely, uh, [laughs] cutting it as far as our education budgets, but they wanna put it more on us to do something, and I just don't think that that is the way to go.

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We need to have, uh, a, a balance between the federal, the state, and the local school boards to be able to really improve education. And, uh, again, uh, the, the...

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What's going on in Washington right now, there is no focus on K through 12, and there is no focus on improving outcomes. Craig, your reaction to that.

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Yeah, so, um, y- you know, there's a reason why they call that place a swamp, [laughs] and, uh, uh, there's a reason where everybody wants to drain it, um, a- and this is one of those reasons.

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You know, since the early '60s, um, and that's the 1960s, since the early 1960s, we have been, um, uh, uh, aided by federal dollars, um, that have done everything, um, that John was talking about.

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Um, one of the, one of the things that concerns me the most is that we continue to cut, um, programming at the federal level for those who need it the most.

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You know, our, our, our special ed kids, um, are kids that, um, are worried about their civil, civil rights being denied, um, every single day, and I'm not talking about, you know, what bathroom you go in.

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I'm talking about literally having the same opportunity for students of every color, every race, every culture.

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Um, a- and the federal government has, um, really over the years since the Civil Right Act that, and IDA went into place, uh, along with Title IX and all of the title programs, those title programs are lifesavers.

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Um, and when you start messing with those...

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And when I say messing with them, because they're gonna, they're gonna cut the US Department of Education, and they're gonna parcel this one off, and some of it's gonna go to ag, and some of it's gonna go to commerce, and some of it's gonna go over here, and some of it's gonna go over there.

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And in the end, there are gonna be students who are left out, and that's not right. And so, um, you know, there's a reason that the US Department of Education was put together.

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Um, you know, everybody talks about, you know, it was, it was, uh, put together under Jimmy Carter. It was actually put together under LBJ, um, and they renamed it a couple of different times.

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But the, the key theme there is that those federal dollars are, are, uh, spent in taking care of those who need it the most.

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Um, and so, uh, it, it concerns me, you know, having dealt with federal programs and been a fo- federal programs director, um, at several times during my career.

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It, it bothers me that there's a chance that all of that's gonna be diluted so much that, uh, nobody knows what they're getting, that...

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And it, and it's al- already, uh, from federal, uh, programs directors that I have talked to since last January, it's already being held up. It's already been delayed.

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Um, and, and so there are so many c- things that could go wrong there, um,

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you know, and one of those, um, hatchet jobs that, um, you know, our, our Indian kids, our Black kids, our Hispanic kids, you know, so many of them, um, could be affected by lo- uh, for long term, um, in, in this, um, this period of austerity that we're going through at the federal level.

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Yeah, and that's, uh, not just, um, you know, that's at the federal level, but some new numbers from April came out.

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Craig, you were telling me that just showing that the gap, the educational investment gap is growing, so bad news federally, bad news locally. Yeah.

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Um, so I, I'm looking at the new numbers, and I, I'm just gonna throw two numbers out there, 17,802 and 14,975.

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And w- what's most concerning to me about those two numbers is that first number, 17,802, that's New Mexico's per-student, per-pupil expenditure. The 14,975, that's Oklahoma's. Uh, I'm sorry, that's the region.

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That's the region. And then so for 17,802 New Mexico, 14,975 the region, and let me throw this at you. This is Oklahoma, 12,142.

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That investment gap in per-pupil expenditures alone puts us $2.1 billion, uh, behind the regional average. That's 700,000 kids by 3,000, uh, dollars per student. That's abysmal.

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That's, um, you know, that, and that's, um, that's one of those things that it, it's gonna be really difficult for us to overcome and get out of 50th.

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When New Mexico is spending $17,802 per student, and we're spending 12,142, how... I- if this was a football field at OU or Oklahoma State or TU, we would be talking about an entire athletic department being fired.

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And, um, so you know, maybe that's what we need to do. Maybe we need to fire our, um, uh, current, um, funders,

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and, um, let's try something different, 'cause what we've been doing is not workingSo Ca- uh, you and I have talked before, and I remember from our conversation that there actually, it's not a quick fix, but for those for vanity purposes who are really upset that we're 50th in anything, there is a fairly quick remedy to at least jumping up to, like, 28.

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And didn't you say it was like, "Just invest more money at the outset"?

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So, uh, every- everyone always, um, uh, criticizes public school in Oklahoma by saying that, you know, we, we just, um, we just can't, um, throw money at the problem, that throwing money at the problem's never gonna solve that.

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If we want the outcomes that will raise us from 50th, we have to invest. And, um, you know, uh, uh, so a- and for me, that investment cannot be what we did this year. We, we put a...

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We threw darts at a raging bull this year. You know, we're, we're at $12,142 per pupil, um, and we threw a $2,000 raise in there, which, um, isn't really covered.

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Uh, there are a certain number of schools that will not, that will have to put that, um, raise into play by law that without being, without the funding behind it. That's not right.

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And so, and the other thing that's not right is that when New Mexico, and Florida, and Kansas are proposing $10,000, um, to, uh, raise teacher pay,

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and we are giving $2,000, that immediately puts us again behind the eight ball, and we're, we're going backwards, and they're going forwards. And, you know, like I said, a $2,000 raise is a great idea.

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Um, I, I'm glad they came up with that. It should have been 12. If we wanna, if we wanna get out of the bottom of our region and we wanna get out of 50th, we've got to invest at a higher level.

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And, and, you know, there's gonna be a lot of people who say, "Oh, oh, you know, where we gonna come up with that money? Where we gonna come up with that money?" I hear that every time I say that we need to invest.

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We also need to, to invest long-term in a long-term plan like we have with roads and bridges. It's not hard. They gave us a roadmap. Um, so y- you know, those are a couple of things.

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Um, and then the other thing is that, um, and it, it just chaps my hiney, if you will, is that, um, in the governor's State of the State speech, um, while we were talking about a flat budget,

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the governor said, and he said it a couple of times, um, that money's not really an issue, that, um... A- and in his State of the State, he said that we had $5.5 billion in reserve.

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Now, some of that's in the rainy day fund, and, you know, legislatively and constitutionally can't get into that fund and take the whole bunch.

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Um, you can only, you can only appropriate three-eighths of the rainy day fund in any, um, uh, fiscal year, and so, um, that's sort of limited. Um, the revenue stabilization fund is not limited by constitution.

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Could've got in there and got all that $2 billion, um, if we, if we chose to do that.

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And then there was, uh, almost $2 billion in, um, funds that were appropriated last session but unspent that go back in the revolving fund.

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And so you have those, you have those three funds there, sitting there, and, you know, the question I ask every time, and, and it...

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e- everybody gets a little giggle out of this, is, you know, um, how rainy do we have to be? You know, 50th's pretty, that's pretty stormy. Uh, I'm from El Reno.

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We know what a storm looks like, and we're in the middle of a storm. And so, um, you know, let's, uh, let's, let's have an eight-year plan. In that plan, let's raise te- teachers' pay $12,000. Do it incrementally.

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You know, in the first year it's five, 5,000. You know, then we go 4,000, then we go two, and then we go one, and then we adjust to what our surrounding, um, states are doing.

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Um, but if they're given $10,000 in New Mexico, they've made a choice to fund education at a higher level than we have.

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And, and, um, so I, I can tell you this, uh, and I, I will, um, I will literally eat my words, um, in July if we are not remaining in 50th because of a lack of real planning and real investment at the state level.

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Mm-hmm.

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So John, I wanna ask you a question, because you recently talked to some folks locally, um, who, businessmen who are, you know, or businesspeople who are actually very concerned about public education, but they didn't seem to me, per our conversation, that they were, like, really ready to invest.

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Well, and, and I think what we, we actually went into a, a... And, you know, when you're running for congress, education is important, and we talked about what's going on at the federal level. But

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when I talk to people today, edu- you know, businesses know they can't get people to come to Oklahoma, whether it be as workers or as other businesses, if we're 50th in education and we don't have workforce development.

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I mean, we've got 27% of Oklahomans have a bachelor's, but 41% of our jobs require a bachelor's. So there is a gap in education here, and businesses understand that the only way you're gonna get out of this, you know...

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And, and they've heard, you know, I heard, "Oh, it's the teachers union's fault." I heard, um, that it's because we have too many su- school districts. And I talked about both of those things.

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I mean, we're a right to work state where, you know, the teachers unions really don't have any power. And if they did, [laughs] they'd be at the legislature, you know, raising teacher pay all the time.

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The thing is, is that we, uh, it's our class sizes that are also too big.

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It's not just paying teachers more, like Craig is saying, which is important, but it's also making sure that we lower class sizes like we did under House Bill 1017.

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When we took away, uh, because we had so many years of cuts from 2008 to 2018-When we took away the legislature having to fund education at the level that House Bill 1017 required from the '90s, that's when we saw

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every year our numbers start going down farther and farther and farther.

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And notice even with the, the teacher walkout in 2018 and subsequent increases in teacher pay, we still aren't increasing outcomes because we don't have the overall funding for paras, for t- for counselors, for librarians, for all the other things.

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Because o- over 80% of a school district's, um, money that they spend every single year, their budget goes to people, right? It's going to the people in the classroom.

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And so when we're talking about increasing funding, it is about paying people a living wage, whether they're staff or teachers, but it's also making sure that we have more teachers.

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If you pay them more but they have 190 students in their AP, uh, US history classes, I mean, I, I can tell you that Craig and I have probably done this a few times, but grading 190 essays is no fun. Right. Right? Right.

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And, and that means you have no life.

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And so it doesn't matter, you know, if, if we give teachers a pay raise if we don't make their job a little bit more sustainable, if we don't give them, uh, an ability to go get higher education, uh, to get a bachelor's degree or to get- pay off some of their, um, school things.

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Uh, because again, to, to go get a bachelor's and then not make enough for a living wage, it's hard to get teachers to go into this, and we're losing teachers left and right because we're not investing.

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I mean, a $5,000 gap, over 5,000 between New Mexico and Oklahoma, that should tell our legislature, "Hey, why aren't you doing something about it?"

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But yet we're spending $250 million on vouchers, on a tax credit that goes to people that are already in private schools. And this business group this morning, they were against vouchers.

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They want to fund public education. They just wanna make sure it's not going to pay $100,000 for a, a football coach, that it's actually going to the teachers. So but let me, let me just, uh, uh, hop on that point.

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It is going to, for $100,000- It is... to pay a football coach. Yeah. I mean, I mean- Not in most public schools, but yeah... this, this is a, a thing that we don't talk about often enough. Yeah.

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How, how much are sports the problem? Part of it. [laughs] Craig, what do you think? Well, as a former coach, um, who did- As well. So, yes...

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who never made, who never made the 400,000 deal, um, I, I, I'm a little defensive over that, and I, and I, a- I really admit that, um, that I am a little defensive over our extracurriculars, and not just, um, it's not just football coaches, not just basketball coaches.

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Um, w- we, in, in order to attract the best people, we have to invest in the best people.

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And so, you know, if you, if you want, um, Brent Venables to come in and coach at OU, um, you're gonna have to pay to get him here. Um, it's, it's no different, um, at the high school level.

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Um, our communities are surrounded by our athletic teams and our extracurriculars.

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Um, y- and so, yeah, I just, I just, uh, bought my, uh, donation T-shirts to our speech team that are, that are trying to get to the national, um, speech contest. A- and so, um, that's a big part of who we are. Um,

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is that something that we need to take a look at? Yes. Superintendent salary is something we need to take a look at? Yes. Um, but the more closely we look at that, um, the less local control that you have.

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And so, um, you know, i- i- it's kind of a double-edged sword. Um, we want the best people, and therefore you're gonna have to pay the best. Um, and so y- I'm a little defensive over that. So- But yeah.

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Yeah, uh- But, but- Yeah, it, that's something that we should be taking a look at, is, you know, um, at, at El Reno, very little general fund money over the 10 years that I was superintendent there.

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Very little general fund money went to any activities, including, uh, football and basketball. Um, very, very small. That, that was all money raised by gate. That was all money raised by, um,

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um, those booster clubs, um, that, that sort of thing. Um, very little, um, y- uh, general fund money, tax money, or state aid ever went to extracurricular.

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So, um, football really though could be a metaphor because we talk about it. I think we get... I'm an OU fan. I'm like, "Yeah, you gotta pay for a good coach. You have to pay for a great assistant."

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I hardly knew that, right? Hardly knew you were an OU fan, right? Oh, yeah, r- right. [laughs] The big, the big fl- flag in the background. Yes. But, uh, yeah, you gotta pay for... We get that.

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You know, why is it so difficult to understand that we also, that teachers, they are our coaching staff of our kids? Well, and, and, uh, we, I talk about this with people all the time.

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People complain about superintendent salaries, but, you know, our superintendent has 5,500 employees, and a like-sized company, uh, in the, the private sector, you're, you're gonna be making millions, uh, and maybe even, [laughs] even more per year.

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Again, it, it's, it's, it's not the same, you know?

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And we don't want to privatize education because then what we've seen with privatizing education, prisons, healthcare, we get worse outcomes, you spend more money, and it all becomes about how to make money as opposed to improving outcomes for students or for patients.

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And, and I kind of look at, at Oklahoma as kind of like with our healthcare system, is that if you don't go to the doctor, right? Um, if you don't take your medicine, you're gonna end up with a lot worse outcomes.

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In the end, you're gonna probably end up with a really bad issue, um, like, you know, not taking your diabetes medicine, you're gonna go to the hospital eventually.they're gonna have to amputate a leg or you could die, um, you know, worst case scenario, and that's kind of what we're doing with education right now.

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Instead of funding it the way that we know it should be, instead of making sure we just do the things, this isn't rocket science.

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It's just making sure we have enough teachers in the classroom and that they're trained well. I mean, it's, it's not super, you know, crazy. A- and that we have the best people, right?

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That we pay a competitive wage, we get the best people, and if you do all of those things, your education can be great. I mean, we look at Massachusetts. People say, "Don't throw money at it."

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Well, they spend the most on education. They have the highest outcomes. They have higher outcomes in Massachusetts than almost anywhere in the world, right?

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Because of that investment, because they put education at such a high priority, they also have one of the highest GDPs for the size state that they have as well.

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So when you invest in education, you also get higher outcomes with economics. You get kids graduating, students graduating that are more prepared for the workforce that then increase your tax rate, uh, your tax base.

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They, they increase, uh, the, the type of jobs that you can have in a state. Uh, we're paying a higher wage. People can afford things. Um, all of a sudden, we're not talking about affordability.

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We're, we're, we're, we're expanding in, in other ways, okay?

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But, uh, again, if we just under invest, being 50th in education also means we're 48th in health outcomes, means that we're top in, in the number of women in prison.

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We're top in all these categories that we don't wanna be in because we didn't invest in the most important thing we should have at the beginning. Right.

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It really starts with education, and Craig, I wanna ask you, uh, 'cause John talked a lot about the need to have more teachers and have smaller class sizes. That's something very tangible that's easy to understand.

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Um, is there a continued value and, or how do we improve, um, the value that emergency certified teachers and adjuncts bring to the table? So the, that, this is one of those issues that, um,

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I, I've been facing since, um, really, uh, 2012. Um, in 2010, I believe, I apply...

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I had a, uh, chemistry teacher that, or a chemist, a chemist with an energy company who wanted to be a chemistry teacher, and she had a master's in chemistry, um, but she did not have a teaching certificate.

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This is 2010, mind you. And, um, we put her application in to become emergency certified, um, and OSDE denied that. Um, a- and so, you know, we have a master's level chemist. We want her to teach chemistry.

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She wants to teach chemistry, very burnt out on the oil industry. Um, and, and she was like, "I, I, I wanna teach." And, um,

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so a- and I think that particular year, um, Sandy Garrett was the state superintendent, and she-- I think they approved less than 40, um, emergency certified applications.

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Um, and then you fast-forward, um, to the last couple years, and we have, like, 6,000 emergency certified teachers. A- a- and we have to have them.

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And some of those emergency certified teachers, most of them are, um, absolutely doing rock, uh, concert, rock star kind of, uh, work, and we have to have them.

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And so we have to, we have to make sure that we protect the pathway, and we also have to make sure that, um, that on-the-job training is, uh, done with coaches, um, and people that know what they're doing so that, you know, when that, uh, partic- I mean, the, the thing with education is everybody went to school, or almost everyone went to school, so they automatically think they can teach school.

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Well- Right... it's not that easy. Uh, uh, John and I were in the classroom. You know, I'm a, I'm a 10-year classroom veteran.

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Um, even, you know, traditionally certified through the College of Education at UCO, which was at, at, I mean, is, uh, you know, one of the leaders in the world in turning out teachers since its inception.

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Um, and so I was prepared, I thought, but I didn't, I didn't really, um, know what I was doing for three years. You know, it takes about three years of on-the-job training.

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Um, and so we can't expect those 6,000 emergency certified teachers to go in and, and day one, um, you know, with no training and no background in, in the science of teaching.

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You know, that, that pedagogy, as it's called, it, it, you know, if you can get that going in, that's great, so you have a little bit of a head start.

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If you don't, it's gonna take you a while, and you have to do that under the supervision of, um, people who are experts.

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If we could get coaches, um, in the school districts, um, to help those certified or those, uh, emergency certified, and I, and I'm not in favor at all of adjunct teachers. I know we have to have them.

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But, you know, when your, when your, um, entire, um, uh, professional, uh, experience is a high school diploma, um, that's problematic.

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Um, and but o- on the other hand, you have to have a, you have to have an adult in front of those kids, and so, um, we've had to compromise a little bit there.

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So I, I think there's a way to do that, but it's gonna take, um, again, we go right back to investment. We have to invest in a teacher corps. Um, it, and there are some people doing some incredible work in that area.

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Uh, CareerTech is weighing in now on that. The community colleges are weighing in on that. Um, there, it, there's a really nice effort.

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Um, we, uh, partnered at El Reno for about, oh, six or seven years now with, uh, Oklahoma Christian out of Edmond, um, to grow our own teachers from teacher's aides.

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So, um, through their program at OC, um-We were able to put our teacher's aide in, in the, um, a process of getting a, a traditional, um, teaching certificate, and we started with 22, and we hired all of them.

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Um, and I- and one of them I believe now is, um, has moved on, and she's going to be in the principal's office.

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And so, um, you know, there's, there's a, um, there's a way to do that, but it- it's gonna have to be focused, and it's gonna have to have some help, and it's gonna take some investment.

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I wanna ask you both just, uh, because w- we talk about, um, when I hear from teachers saying, "Look, it takes about three years of on-the-job training."

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Again, I think the mass populace, whether they're talking about roles in government, leading DHS, or being a teacher, I think we underestimate what goes into this.

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What do you think is, like, the most misunderstood part of what it actually takes to be a teacher?

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Well, I, I think, you know, having gone through the traditional education, uh, at the University of Tulsa, but I started late.

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I started, um, actually spring semester of my junior year, so took me an extra, uh, semester just to do my student teaching.

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And then because I had a political science degree, I had to go back to TCC and get a bunch of history courses to get certified in social studies, so I substituted for a, a long period during, uh, that time and then started, uh, teaching in Louisiana.

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Um, but w- what we find is that a lot of the teachers that are being thrown in there, they're being thrown in not only without a lot of, of background, and what we do in Tulsa is we actually do a Tulsa Teacher Corps training over the summer.

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So we give 'em a, a kind of a, a boot camp, you know, to, to get 'em ready, and then we, we pair them up with teachers to, to be able to, to help them through that first semester with lesson planning.

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Uh, but most of them are fine as far as the, the education side. So the, the, the knowledge is usually not the issue. Uh, the issue is classroom management.

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It's that you have 33 to 1 student to teacher ratios in our high schools and middle schools.

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A- and, and, you know, I'm sure Craig has, you know, been around, but, um, teaching sixth graders geography, you know, without a lot of experience, uh, and not having a lot of experience with, with classroom management, it, it's a lot.

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And then we also, you know, and, and my son's in the band. I, I was soccer and band. Our kids are in a lot of extracurriculars that these teachers are also, you know, working the breakfast duty.

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They're outside doing bus duty. They're, uh, doing a, a, a, you know, one of the extracurricular activities or a, or a club.

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So they're working their tails off, and they have a high burnout range, where we have in the state, I mean, uh, maybe half of the s- teachers we have right now, a lot of them are novice in their first three years.

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And so we need things to incentivize teachers to stay. My thing is a national, you know, um, pay off your college if you stay in a public classroom for five years.

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Um, we need to have incentives for people to wanna go get this degree, uh, because they'll be a little bit better off going into the classroom.

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And then if we can help to keep them there for a little bit, an incentive to stay in the classroom, if we can get 'em to five years, a lot of 'em are gonna stay a lot longer.

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And if they don't, I can tell you that teachers are generally some of the best people to hire.

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Now, you know, being in, in the private sector, you know, when you get a teacher, these are people that can [laughs] that y- you don't have to manage them. You tell 'em what needs to be done, and they're able to do it.

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They can work with people. They're not, um, you know, they're not making fun of, of clients. [laughs] You know? Right. You don't have to worry about them, um, being mean to people. I mean, it's- It's on high TV...

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politics we have today, yeah, that we see so many people that are just, you know, mean to each other on social media. That's not what you see from teachers.

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They have a, they, uh, are doing it because it's, uh, it's a mission for them. You know? They're, they're doing it because, uh, of it's in their heart, not because that they were going to make money at it.

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But if we wanna keep 'em in the classroom, we definitely have to pay them what they're worth. So Craig, I wanna ask you about, uh, classroom management.

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When you've, uh, like, sort of mentored new teachers, what, what are one or two pearls of wisdom you've passed along about that? S- s- the same thing that was handed to me, Ryan.

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Um, you know, when I took over my first classroom when I was doing my student teaching, the, um, my supervising teacher said, you know, "Here's my grade book. Um, here's my lesson plan book.

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I'll be down in the la- lounge, um, if you need me," sort of thing. "But let me give you two pieces of advice. Uh, a teacher on their feet's worth two in their seat, and don't let 'em, don't ever smile until Christmas."

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You know, those, those kind of things were, um, you know, uh, handed to me. And of course, you know, my personality is not that I'm not gonna s- smile till Christmas. We're gonna have some fun.

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Um, you know, feed 'em and fun 'em was one of my things that, um, that I thought I got a lot out of.

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But one of the things is, um, uh, you know, e- everyone who's been to school thinks, you know, um, they can get in a classroom, and they can do that, and most everyone can.

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In the classroom, um, you know, is, is one of those things you get... I mean, you stand and deliver a lesson, that's one thing.

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It's when little Johnny puts his pencil in the ear of little Billy that you have to react to that. And, and so, um, you know, proximity, you know, if you're, uh, you know, never turn your back.

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Those kind of things, um, are things that, that our young teachers n- you know, s- things that I learned.

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What happens behind the curtain, Ryan, um, i- you know, y- not in the classroom but all of the things that go with that, all the, the state, local, federal mandates-Um, all of those, um, things that, um, teachers have to deal with that they were not prepared for, um, those are the kind of things that, um, that I, I would tell them, you know, get help from your experienced teachers.

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Um, and, and then, um, y- you know, what John said a minute ago, you know, the number one rank- rate, um, of l- teachers leaving is after the first year.

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More teachers leave after their first year in teaching, and so we gotta get 'em to year two, and then we gotta get 'em to year five.

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And the, the way we do that is a lot of professional culture building, um, a lot of team building, you know, a lot of, um, help behind the scenes, um, so that teachers don't think that they're on an island.

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But what I would tell them, um, first is, um, you gotta have thick skin, um, to, to go in that classroom. If you've never been in a classroom with seventh grade boys, um, or seventh grade girls for that matter- Yeah...

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it, it's not a, it's not the easiest thing. And when you go in a classroom, um, and I did this for a while. I had sev- I had 35 seventh graders, um, in a classroom that had never had more than 20 students in it before.

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And when you, when you go in that classroom and those kids are close enough where they can, um, pinch each other, um, you know, on a, on a daily basis, y- if you're not prepared for that and you don't know how to handle that, then that's, that's, uh, where trouble starts.

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And, and so, um, we have to have great administrators, principals. You know, we have a shortage in principals too, assistant principals, principals.

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Um, you know, it's not just, uh, teachers that we're short in, it's, um, educators across the spectrum. Mm-hmm. And so I think we have to, um, we have to do some things differently.

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But, you know, one of, one of those things is, um, you know, I would t- I would tell every young teacher, "Stay with it. Um, it gets easier. It gets better." Um, you know, and, um,

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probably, um, I would tell them, um, "Get more away from your, um, desk. Um, be in the hallways." Um, you know, John mentioned duties.

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Um, I, I was never allowed as a teacher to be in my classroom when the students weren't there [laughs]. And so, um, you know, that's one of those things. You, you're where the kids are. Um, we eat with them.

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You know, um, it, you know, uh, uh, God bless a PK teacher. You know, you, you got 20 PK, you got 24 year olds, um, and when they start school, they can't get, they can't get their zippers down.

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They can't get to the water fountain. They can't open the door. And so those PK teachers are, by October 1st, they are already dead tired. And so, um, I, I would say, you know, get plenty of sleep.

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Um, watch your, watch what you eat and, um, be prepared. It's a physical as well as mental, um, challenge. And so, uh- Yeah... that, that's what I would say. I... That, that's gold, Craig. What about you, John? Yeah.

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I, I just tell, you know, people, and, you know, my wife just came in, uh, to see me, so, uh, she w- she would tell, you know, anybody that asks, you know, being a, a, an insurance and a business owner is a lot easier than being an educator.

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Um, just the, the mental and the physical, uh, demands that being a teacher are, it's, it's, it's a lot easier i- in some other, in, in some other positions, but, uh, it is also one of the things that's the most worth it, right?

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So people will say, you know, "Oh, you, you, you must, uh, like, you know, being out of education," and, and I tell them, "No, that's not the case. I, I, I do love teaching."

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It's just, it is, it is a challenge, and it's a challenge that so many people have decided to do with their lives that it's, it's a calling for them.

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And then, uh, if we really wanna change things for the state of Oklahoma, we've gotta invest in the people that wanna, uh, invest in our kids.

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You know, this is teacher appreciation week, and, and when you think about impact, I'm 55 years old. Do you know I can recite all of my teachers in elementary school? Linda Quinlan, first grade.

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Second grade, Margie Ball. Uh, third grade, Jacqueline Houghton. Fourth grade, Dietta Henigan. This is all in Okmulgee, Oklahoma. Fifth grade, Ann Kelly, and then John Ritchie in Muskogee. I can keep going on and on.

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I remember my principal, Robert Woodson, Okmulgee, Oklahoma. And, and, and that's just... I mean, think about the impact, where you remember those. I can't remember what I did yesterday. Yeah. Right.

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Hey, Ryan, um, on, on Facebook this morning, I, I, I posted, um, my, the teachers that have impacted me, uh, over my career, and I started with grade school, and I just started listing the ones that I...

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The- these are the teachers that impacted me my entire life and got all the way to my master's program at Southwestern. Um, a- and so the...

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when you have that ability to influence someone, you know, I, I, I posted this morning, they, they not only shaped me, some of them saved me.

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And, um, you know, that, that's the, uh, I mean, when we, we talk about teachers that pour themselves into their kids and, and, um, you know, they're... and actually love doing the job.

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I, I was with third graders in Jones on Wednesday, um, and it just reminded me that, um, it's worth it. It, it, you know, you, you don't, you, no one ever says, "Hey, you're gonna get rich in this business."

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Uh, we ought to pay 'em what they're worth, and, and we don't. Um, and so, uh, w- but, you know, like you said, you, you know your teachers. You can name them. Um, you can probably... I can't.

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I cannot remember a single test I ever took. I can't. I- At all... but I can remember, I can remember every one of those teachers, even the ones that I fussed withUm, I, they had an impact on me, so- Yeah.

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Man, I- I- Teacher Appreciation Week, so we should thank all of our teachers, everybody that's out there- The, the-... working hard every day... the, the characters from middle school, Steven Probst, the math teacher.

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I, I... he had some sort of condition, but he had a cane, and he would hit that cane when we weren't getting our algebra right. Uh, Marcy Hayes, sixth grade.

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Uh, high school teachers, Mary Beth Morris, she's one of my Facebook friends, Sharon Sizemore. I mean, they just all had a massive impact, and it's just, uh, such a...

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I have always thought journalism is a noble cause, but there probably is no higher noble cause in public life than being an educator. Y- you wanna... I'll, I'll tell you something.

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I, I went to lunch with, um, one of my freshman, um, typing teacher about two weeks ago. I mean, y- y- when you g- when you have that kind of, um, relationship over...

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You know, I'm 65 years old, and, you know, as a 14-year-old, um, Dr. Schellenberger was teaching me how to type. And, you know, then we went to lunch, uh, last week.

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And, uh, it, those are the kind of relationships, uh, Dole Bredeman, um, English, speech and drama, and was assistant principal, um, he and I probably have a conversation once a month.

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Um, yeah, and he was my mentor as a former superintendent. Um, you know, this guy I, I leaned on, not only my teacher, but, um, y- my principal and, and then, um, later on as my colleague.

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That's pretty, that's pretty, um... And, and I think that, you know, even in journalism you guys have that same thing, you know. You, you can probably name the people who mentored for you, uh, in the beginning.

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I know I can. Y- you know, I'll tell you what, just, uh, there's a piano behind me. I don't know if anybody can see it when we were just sort of in, uh, two blocks here.

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But I, I wouldn't have started playing publicly for any reason, or writing music, or anything, developed it without Greg Johnson and Jim Pierce in Henryetta, Oklahoma. It just would not have happened. Yeah. Right.

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Yeah, and- Yeah, that's, that's the power of great educators. And, um, you know, we have 40,000 of them in Oklahoma. There's 40,000 teachers, 35,000 certified teachers who aren't in the classroom.

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John's one of those guys. John, we need you back. We need you back in the classroom. But they're all- My first DC. Yeah. Yeah.

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Yeah, first, first in Congress, then y- you know, come back after about 20 years and- Unfortunately, in politics, I find a lot of former educators that are just trying to change things, to just give back to educators what, what they really deserve with the amount of work that they, they do, the amount that they've put up with over the years of under-investment.

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Uh, we need to be doing things because, I mean, every one of us can go back to the Mr.

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Hoover, you know, my fifth grade math teacher, or my soccer coach, Ed Skataric, or Mike Horn, or, um, my band director, Ken Grass, or, or Bob Early at Jenks.

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Again, all these people are having an impact on students, every single one of them, that is going to lead them into whatever path they take in life.

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And we just have to make sure in Oklahoma that, you know, we're not 50th, we really aren't. But we're investing 50th, and we're getting 50th outcomes. And we can change that,

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but we need people like Craig, its state superintendent, that's gonna advocate for students.

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We need people going into local and to local school boards, uh, into our state, uh, legislature, a- and to the federal government because each one of these are an important, you know, leg in the stool, right?

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I always say, you know, there's... we have a five-legged stool in Oklahoma. It's local, state, and federal, it's the tribes, and then it's also the nonprofits and churches.

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If we have everybody working in the same direction, we can improve it, not just education, but that's gonna improve our entire state. That's gonna improve outcomes for the majority of people.

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We'll lift up Oklahomans to be above where we are right now. But if we keep under-investing in education, the outcomes are not gonna change, if we keep doing the same thing and expect a different result.

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That's a good word to end on, but I wanna ask you both, how's the campaign going on? What you got going on this weekend? What you got going on next week? Go ahead, Craig. Well, I, I will s- I, I, I will start.

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Um, I am Saturday morning. Is that tomorrow? Because- Yes, I think so... one thing I found out, um, you people all lie to us candidates. I'm gonna tell you, this is, this is the big lie.

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Everyone told me, "Hey, this is gonna be a hard job. You're gonna work your tail off. Um, it's gonna be... yeah, I mean, it's gonna be exhausting." What they don't tell you face to face is it's a night job.

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It's a weekend job. It's every night, every weekend. So tomorrow I'm in Stillwell for the Strawberry Festival. I am really looking forward to that.

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Um, y- you know, that, those kind of things are a blast, where you get to get out and meet people, um, in their fun environment. Um, we... I, I was at, um, Wednesday night this week, uh, last week I was, um...

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we had a, uh, special ed forum for state superintendent candidates, um, Oklahoma City, um, uh, put on, and it was incredible.

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Um, the, um, the subject matter, you know, there's so many people that are willing to listen and offer, um, their help. You know, when you talk about Teacher Appreciation Week. Um, next week, same thing.

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E- every night, every weekend, um, we're going somewhere. Uh, been to all 77 counties now. Um, s- a lot of them I've been, uh, you know, multiple times. Um,

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and, um, the atmosphere of wanting change and, and, um, you know, we don't like to be last at anything in Oklahoma. We wanna be national champions.

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Um, you know, those, those seven national championships, um, that, that are on that flag up there at Norman, that's, that's, that's where we wanna be.

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And, um, so our competitive spirit, our independent nature as Oklahomans-Um, they demand, um, that sort of, uh, work ethic, um, from their candidates. And so, um, it, it's going really well.

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Um, raising money's hard, I'm not gonna lie. It, it's, um...

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You know, uh, I, I hate the two words most in my life right now are call time, um, because you gotta spend all that time on the phone, um, asking the people you know for money, and that's really frustrating for me. Um,

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so, um, but the results have been incredible. When we are face-to-face and people say, you know, "No more Ryan Walters, no more BS, no more, no more Janet Barresi.

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We need an educator, uh, leading this, um, department," um, that gives me a lot of hope. Um, and so it's been, it's been really, really good across the state.

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And Craig and I have been at a lot of events together, and I can just tell you, it's, it's great to see people that are running, uh, both Craig and myself, and there's a lot of other Democratic candidates and, and Republican candidates, to be honest with you, that are just doing it for the right reasons.

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And so for me, we've got, um, we got a busy week. We'll be, uh, calling and knocking doors on Saturday. Uh, we- we've got, uh, Mother's Day. We can't...

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Uh, today is Teacher Appreciation Week, um, a- and Day, but, uh, we also have Mother's Day, so do not forget Mom, uh, on Sunday.

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And then, uh, next week we have a, uh, Jinx fundraiser and meet and greet, um, that's Saturday at 11:30, uh, on the 16th.

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We're gonna be at Rooster Days, uh, so CD1, uh, we're gonna have a booth at Rooster Days Thursday through Sunday, uh, out in Broken Arrow.

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Uh, always a great time, and we got six candidates that are running for local, uh, s- and state representatives out in, uh, Broken Arrow, so, uh, a record number, uh, over the last few years.

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And so it's just, it's seeing all of this go on and, you know, we had a big, um, endorsement yesterday for one of the other candidates from Trump, and that seems to get people fired up quite a bit, uh, here in CD1.

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So they want reasonable. They want somebody who's gonna go fight for them, not just for the President of the United States a- and, and all of that.

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So, you know, we're, we're gonna stay busy, and, uh, we've got a lot of people to meet with. But, uh, we appreciate this time to be able to sit down, and I really appreciate, Craig, with you, uh, being with us this week.

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Hey, thanks for the invitation, guys. It's been a joy as always, Ryan. Love to be with you. And Jon, um, uh, e- I learn something from Jon Crisant every single time we talk.

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And, um, you know, it, it's that kind of give and take that, that makes all this more fun for me. Well, and Jon, I thank you for the suggestion to bring Craig on board.

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I would just say for anybody watching this or anybody that you guys share this with, let's, let's do this more often.

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I think having a, a third person we can just sort of bounce ideas off of, hey, if you're a Republican who's in it for the right l- reasons, maybe that's you. I don't...

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You know, I just thought this was a really refreshing conversation, and I just got to, uh, reach out back to a lot of memories as part of Teacher Appreciation Week and acknowledge, uh, the educators who were so impactful to me.

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And so, uh, you know, if this was impactful to you, viewer, listener, leave a comment, subscribe, like, and go follow these guys. Jon, you're at www.crisantforcongress. That's one S, the Muskogee spelling.

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And Craig, where can they find you? It's, uh, www.craigforkids.com. That's C-R-A-I-G F-O-R-K-I-D-S dot com. Fantastic. Jon, Craig, thank you both. And until next week, we will talk to you later.