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99% of people who come to me are way, way, way missing their carbohy- daily carbohydrate goals. I'm talking about, like, hundreds of grams of carbohydrate.

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So to me, being more generous with our fueling is an easy way to stay ahead of things and/or kind of get ourselves out of an unintentional under-fueling hole that, for the most part, if you are training for an ultra or doubling and tripling, there's not much to be lost by taking in 30 grams of carbohydrate on an hour run.

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Welcome to For the Long Run. We explore the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated, and how they've been able to achieve sustainable excellence.

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I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt, and we're so glad you're here. I've been doing a deep dive into my health and training data lately, years of Strava, blood work, and race results.

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One thing keeps showing up in my best running performances, my fastest mile, my strongest marathon blocks. When I look at what was different biologically across those performances, it comes back to iron.

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My ferritin was at 73. My hemoglobin was up. I was running the best I'd ever run. It's not a novel insight.

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Sports scientists and dieticians have known for years that iron is, is one of the most important micronutrients for endurance athletes, but knowing it and actually doing something about it are different things.

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So I've been thinking about where my iron actually comes from, and the honest answer is that it hasn't always been as consistent as I'd like, as I'm not often buying meat at the grocery store.

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That's why I've been so excited about a new partnership with Good Ranchers. Good Ranchers delivers high-quality American-sourced beef, chicken, and seafood directly to your door. No grocery store required. No forgetting.

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It just shows up, and the quality is impressive, even when it's frozen. I opened my first box and was struck by the packaging, the cuts, and how it all looked.

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If you're training hard, you need quality protein and you need iron. Good Ranchers makes that easier to actually execute on, not just think about. Go to goodranchers.com and order your first box.

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This is a pilot partnership, and that actually matters. Good Ranchers has never worked with an endurance network or podcast before.

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We're the test case, and the way we prove that this audience converts, that runners and endurance athletes are worth investing in, is through your support. So after you purchase, you'll see a short post-purchase survey.

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It's what makes it possible to grow this into something bigger, how whether that's athlete sponsorships, more shows, deeper investment in the endurance community, and more.

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We're building the case together, so use the code, take the survey, and let's show them what this audience can do. This episode is sponsored by Vacation Races. These aren't your average races.

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And welcome back. We have Stevie Smith joining on the podcast today for her millionth appearance on For the Long Run. Stevie, welcome back. You know, always, always happy to be here.

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You know, I'm, I'm a big friend and fan of the pod. [laughs] At some point, you've eclipsed David Roche as the most, uh, most repeated guest, so, um- Wow... your episodes are some of the most popular.

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Uh, I think people are just interested in, uh, some practical fueling and practical tips as it relates to nutrition. Um, so for those who haven't tuned into an episode with Stevie before, who is Stevie? Yes.

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Who is Stevie? Well, Stevie is a registered dietician, um, board certified in sports nutrition.

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She is also a dog mom and a small business owner, and I like to think, you know, I'm kind of, like, doing it all in the, um, sports nutrition world between writing, yapping, working one-on-one, working with groups.

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Um, like you said, love to give practical nutrition tips that are actually applicable to us as human beings and endurance athletes. Oh, I always forget, I am also an endurance athlete. [laughs] And a podcast host.

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And a podcast host. See? I just do all of the things because it's just all very exciting and nice to kind of be in the endurance and sports world in a lot of different, you know, avenues. I'm an author too, right?

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[laughs] There we go. Yeah. Um, Stevie has also joined me in the, The Long Run Labs network effort.

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Stevie's the, uh, essentially project manager and, and the whole house would fall down without, without Stevie, um, managing the details.

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So, uh, we're gonna talk through some of the, the partnerships that have, um, come to fruition and some of the, the pieces that we're excited to bring to the For the Long Run community as well as the running community at large.

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Stevie, before we dive into it, can you explain the difference between a dietician and everybody else on the internet? Yeah.

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So, um, a dietician, there is definitely a very calculated and regulated path, um, educationally, and then after education, that a s- dietician has to follow along.

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Um, begot-- You know, starting with an accredited program, um, in a related degree. There are different ways to kind of get that degree. [laughs] What, what you do undergraduate-wise.

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My Bachelor's of Science was in dietetics and nutrition. You can do other health-related sciences and then kind of take a different track. Um, basically have to have a bachelor's degree in a related health science.

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And now, as of 2024, it's required that all new, um, individuals who want to become a dietician have a master's degree.

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It was not required when I became a dietician, but I did go back and get my Master's of Science in Applied Nutrition.We also have to do 1,200 hours of supervised practice before we can sit for that board exam.

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Then we have to take a national board exam to get the RD credentials and then do continuing education throughout our career. Um, I mentioned that I'm board certified in sports nutrition. That is something additional.

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Uh, there are also other specialties as well within the nutrition field, but to say you're a sports dietician, that CSSD credential, you then have to practice-- Uh, you have to be practicing two years and have 2,000 hours working with athletes before you can even apply to sit for the board exam, and then you have to sit for the board exam, pass.

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And that one in particular, we have to recertify every five years, so I just had to retake that board exam, which te- standardized test basic- taking is like my least favorite thing in the entire world.

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So it was slightly traumatic, but always good, good to go back and, you know, like brush up. There was a lot of new information, especially around tactical nutrition on my exam. Um, so yes.

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So lots of learning, ongoing learning and a process. And then everybody else on the internet- Eats. They eat.

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I mean, there are other, uh, nutrition, like s- I'm thinking like CNS, where there's like a little bit more rigidity to their program, but most people on the internet either took like a weekend certification course or maybe has their master's in nutrition, which is not nothing, but it's just a less regulated space and basically anyone can call themselves a nutritionist.

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So when someone calls themselves a dietician, it's like they've gone through that whole rigorous process, right?

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It's just kind of like you think about your doctors, like you want your doctors to go through all that training and education, right? So same with your nutrition professionals. [laughs] Yes. A very long-winded answer.

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[laughs] So sorry. Yeah. So I know there are a lot of dieticians that listen to this show, and so I'm sure they'll appreciate the, that lengthy explanation.

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But I also wanted to preface the rest of our conversation with, with like where is this coming from and why does Stevie feel like she can give guidance to people on the internet? Because the...

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I think the challenge with, with nutrition guidance is like everyone eats and everyone has feelings about like their- Mm...

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own diet and the dogmatic like, it must be this way versus people who, who think that they're outliers or, you know, and likely aren't, and then something has worked for them or they have good genetics, et cetera. Yeah.

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And then they become preachy on the internet.

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So we're gonna approach this episode with best practices and principles for, uh, fueling, talking about what to think about as we go longer in races, what to think about- Mm-hmm...

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um, from a, from a training standpoint and how we think about, you know, what we're putting into our body and when we need to start thinking about fueling, even just in training. Um- Mm-hmm...

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I've referenced this story about a million times on the podcast, so longtime listeners will be like, "Ugh, this again."

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But when I first started adding some more carbs to my long runs, specifically going above like 50 or 60 up closer to 80, um, I remember texting you one day.

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I had done like two and a half hours and then I, I, uh, was moving furniture for like four hours and- Mm-hmm...

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I texted you to say like, "Oh, I didn't feel like a vegetable needing to nap, and I was actually able to do f- like four hours of, of furniture moving after running for two and a half hours."

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Um, I had had like 85 grams of carbs an hour on that day and you were like, "Yeah, duh." [laughs] Duh. [laughs] So, so let's, let's start with fueling, high carb fueling. Who is it for? What does high carb even mean?

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Um, this comes from someone who ironically used two servings of UCAN for my first marathon in 2013, bonked real hard at- Mm-hmm...

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you know, mile 18 and spoke with Lisa McDowell, who is the current dietician of the Red Wings and kind of like the godmother of, of sports- Mm... nutrition.

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She said, uh, something I'll always remember, which is, "John, you gotta eat, eat more carbs and eat more sugar and, and take more caffeine." And so I did and, and had a great next few, uh, next few races.

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But anyway, um, long preamble to say like why, why is high carb fueling having a moment? What, what is it about fu- like refueling at some higher level than most people are used to? Mm-hmm.

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And in the framework of like most people listening to this are not professional athletes and many of them are running 10 or 12-minute miles, and so should they be thinking about fueling in this, in this same regard or is it really about intensity versus pace?

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A lot of questions. Yeah. Yeah, so, you know what? That's okay. I gave you a really lengthy answer to start, so I'll take a really lengthy question right back.

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Uh, yeah, so much to unpack, but all good, all good questions. So what is high carb fueling? There really is no official def- definition.

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It's kind of like a moving target depending on how, who you're talking to, what context you're talking in. But basically, it, it is, and it's, it's changing too, right?

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You're hearing people and professionals taking up to 120 grams of carbohydrates per hour. Um, whereas like before, you know, 60 grams per hour used to be the top end, then it kind of shifted into 60 to 90.

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You'll hear a lot of people say 60 to 90 is high carb fueling. Um, I tend to just not say high carb fueling.

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I just say fueling or fueling with carbohydrates because when we're thinking about if I'm working with a client or even, you know, with myself and we're thinking about like, okay, what's our carb per hour goal,

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it's all very individual. It's all nuance. Like yes, duration and int- intensity are gonna play a factor in there, but we're kind of looking for each individual-For a sweet spot.

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Like, what is that gram of carbohydrate per hour where you can, one, actually execute it and, like, take in [chuckles] the planned amount on race day between carrying it, tolerating it.

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Um, like, yeah, thinking about taking in 100 grams per hour is, like, a great pipe dream, but, like, if that's something you cannot execute and execute your race plan, that is not the appropriate grams of carbohydrate per hour for you.

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Um, for example, I-- when I ran the Buffalo Marathon last year, I did some long runs at 100 grams per hour, and I could do it, but I was on the treadmill, but I was like, "Eh, this feels a little...

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I don't know if this is it. I don't know if that's gonna sit so well on race day." So I ended up doing right around 84 grams per hour on race day and felt great.

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And that was kind of like I found my sweet spot, that this is how much I can take in. I can tolerate it. Um, for my data geeks, like, if you look at my marathon, like, profile on TrainingPeaks,

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there is no aerobic decoupling. [laughs] And a lot of people, like, really don't understand that can be-- That's very tied to nutrition and hydration as well. I negative split by five minutes.

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My last 10K was sub eight-minute miles. My last 5K was right around a 730. I felt great. I went out later in the day, right? Like, you couldn't, you couldn't look at a better file.

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Yes, training was important, but fueling with carbohydrates consistently in my workouts also helped me get those adaptations from the training, right?

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Like, everybody gets so hyper-focused on training, which is great, but nutrition is there to support those adaptations that we're trying to achieve.

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So, long story long to say, high carb fueling for some people might be 60 grams per hour, and this can always change. In my Ironman days, I did, like, 74 grams per hour, and, like, that worked for me.

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Now, if I were go-- to go do a full Ironman, I'd try to go a little bit higher. So it's somewhere between usually that 60 to 90. You'll see some people go higher.

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Um, in higher intensities, right, there's gonna be a little bit more carbohydrate breakdown, oxidation. Um, do we shift that fueling too much?

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Meh, not a ton, because I always tell people, like, "Don't go out there and half-ass your fueling," right?

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Like, if we're going out for a two-hour, like, easy to moderate effort long run, that should be the same fueling that you plan to do on race day, in my opinion, so we're training our gut. Yeah.

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I did a, a podcast with, um, the founders of Carbs Fuel a number of years ago- Mm-hmm... and they talked about the, the intensity component versus- Mm-hmm... the pace.

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There's a difference between running a marathon and racing a marathon. I'm running a marathon in April. Mm-hmm. I'm not racing a marathon. My marathon PR is 259, and I'm attempting to run this race at, like, 430. Okay.

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Um, it's part of the Mount to Coast Double Boston, and so they're taking it very easy in the first marathon, so it'll be, like, four to four and a half hours.

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So there's the differential of, like, pushing threshold effort or, or just sub-threshold effort for multiple hours, and then there's- Mm-hmm... like...

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I mean, that might be, like, zone, in between zone, like, high zone two- Mm-hmm... low zone two for me. Yeah. Yeah.

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How do you, how do you fuel something like that that's just, like, a longer day at a lower intensity than normal? And I ask that for a variety of reasons.

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One, we're gonna-- this episode is brought to you by Vacation Races, where, uh, we're gonna talk about Bryce and Zion and the, the jaunt that we, we had through Bryce Ultras is coming up in September of this year.

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I'm thinking about doing something fun there. Um, and then Zion Ultras is, is in April. Um, those races are 50K, 50 mile, 100 mile. So the intensity of, of 100-mile race, um, you know, that's zone two-ish- Mm-hmm...

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all day kind of a thing. Mm-hmm. So when you're thinking about a lower effort,

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so for me, like, a four to four and a half hour marathon, how does that change-- or, or something longer, how does that change the, the fueling? Do you, do you need the 80 grams an hour for something like that?

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Honestly, like, so for me, when I'm looking at it, like, I put high intensity and long duration in the same bucket, right? So long duration is over two and a half hours. We're looking for 60 to 90 grams of carb per hour.

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The- Cool... yes, the intensity is different, but, like, when we're thinking about exogenous or, like, outside carbohydrate sources from, like, gels, [sighs] we're looking, like...

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Right about 60% of your VO2 max is kind of when that carbohydrate need is going to increase. So, like, a lot of people don't know if they're racing at, like, 60% of their VO2 max or not.

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But when we're out there for a long time, I tend to be a little-- I tend to be more generous with the carbohydrates, at least hitting that 60 to 90 grams, even if we are working at a lower intensity.

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And this is also because that carbohydrate intake from outside sources is going to help you recover better after an effort like that.

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So, like, if it's a four-and-a-half-hour effort, lower intensity for you, but you're turning out into another big effort the next day, the next week, we wanna get optimal recovery from that. So

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other sports scientists, sports dieticians might feel a little bit differently. I'm still gonna have you kind of at least get into that 60 to 90 range.

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Maybe you're not at your top end, but I would at least want that 60 grams of carb per hour so we're not just completely depleting those glycogens stored, that stored form of carbohydrate.

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So we're setting you up for better recovery after that effort, 'cause if you are doing, like, a zone two four-and-a-half-hour effort and you're training for an ultra,

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you still probably have a lot of- Yeah, it's good training. Yeah... you have a lot of running to do still in the week- Right... following.

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So we wanna make sure we're recovering well, and that in-workout carbohydrate is piece, a piece of the puzzle to that.

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So kind of, like, more big picture rather than, like, hypervo- focusing on, like, "Oh, well, I'm only doing 50% of my VO2 max for this effort," right?I guess an easy way to think about that will be two of the Precision packets per hour.

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Yeah. Uh, and it's very simple, and I can chew on the Chews or, or take the gels down. Yeah, 60 as a minimum makes, makes a lot of sense for, for something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, I, I've been curious about that.

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I've been working with one of the sports scientists at Precision to talk through what I did at Big Alta and the fueling and, and hydration of something like that, which ended up being a 3:08, uh, duration.

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And I had, I had increased the sodium intake because- Mm-hmm... I've been tested quite high with that, and her, her guidance was like, "You gotta bump up your intake."

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Um, I was at, like, 400 milligrams per hour, uh, which is not enough. Uh, I, I more than doubled that and felt, felt great. [chuckles] Yeah. That's like...

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So, like, when we think about sodium per hour, that's so unique to each individual, but, like, the general range is, like, 300 to 600 milligrams per hour, like, give or take.

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So, like, you were riding on the low end of that to begin with. I have said this on many a podcast, but I had a friend I did a sweat test with last year, and he lost 7,000 milligrams per hour. [laughs] My God. What? Yes.

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[laughs] I was like, "Dude, this is insane." [laughs] That's like, uh... That's like three servings of a burger and fries- [laughs] It was wild... per hour. And of co- and of course, like, he was doing his...

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He was training for his first 70.3, and it was, like, a day where the, you know, high heat, high humidity, East Coast real feel, like, 105 by the time he got on the run. But you know what? He did it. He got through it.

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He finished. So this is, this is a good point.

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There are a lot of contributors to athletic performance, and so many of the, many of the athletes that tend to perform well in longer races or in hot conditions have a low sweat rate and a low sodium rate.

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I'm plagued by having a high sweat rate and a high sodium rate, and so, like, by defini- like, by definition, I, I'm going to have a harder time.

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But if you can replace, if you can replace things like that, um, you know, you can do a little bit better.

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But I'd venture to guess that most, most record holders and most people who are finishing well in hot races have both a low sweat rate and a low, um, uh, sodium rate. And- Mm-hmm...

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and sweating itself is the mechanism to cool yourself, and so people who sauna a lot- Mm-hmm... are more efficient at cooling themselves because their sw- their, their sweat rate increases earlier.

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And so if you sauna a lot, you're just getting more efficient at producing, uh, at, at that cooling mechanism, but it, it doesn't come at no cost. Mm-hmm. Talk to me about how somebody might...

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I mean, it's, this one might be a little bit, a lot more obvious. How do you know if you're a salty sweater? How do you know if you're a, a heavy sweater, and what, what should those people do? Yeah.

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So a lot of the times it's, uh, I tell people to lean into how they're feeling during and after. Obviously, like, cramping, a lot of salt on your gear, that's usually a sign that you are a heavy sweater.

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You're sweating a lot. Um, but there are other things too, like GI issues can be, you know...

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[sighs] It's very nuanced here 'cause I'm, like, thinking about a client who was, like, taking in, like, 2,000 milligrams of sodium per hour because sodium had a moment, and everybody's like, "Oh, more is better."

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Well, more is not always better. That was making her poop her pants. [laughs] And, like, we just-- She was still, like, a pretty high, s- like, salty sweater.

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She was around 1,000 milligrams an hour, but she was taking d- in double, almost double what she needed, and it made her poop her pants.

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And we did a sweat test, and we got some data, and we just pulled it back and, like, adjusted a few things, and it was a game changer. But, so, like, how you're feeling. GI issues can, uh, can be an indicator.

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Um, feeling, like, dizzy, lightheaded. I always think about, like, headaches or feeling, like, sometimes feeling, like, cold after, like, a long run or a hot workout.

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Like, that's n- doesn't always necessarily mean you need more salts, but that's something where I'm like, we wanna look at your hydration before, during, and after your workouts.

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If we're feeling some of those things, um, feeling kind of like that tired, fatigue, nauseous, low appetite after your workouts as well, that can be an indicator that we need to kind of look at your hydration status.

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Um, and some of it is just more of, like, how do we balance these things that work for you when I say hydration status.

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Like, if you feel those things, it doesn't automatically mean just add more sodium, but more of like, hey, we gotta look at this, and are we balancing your fluids, sodium, and carbs in a way that fits your physiology more so?

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This episode is brought to you by Precision Fuel and Hydration. Spring race season is here, which means a lot of you are moving from training into race mode.

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Precision cuts through the noise with three simple dials: carbs, fluid, and sodium. Their gels and Chews have powered thousands of miles for me the last couple of years, and I'd love to hear how it works for you too.

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Head to visit.pfandh.com/forthelongrun and take 15% off your order. Make sure to select For the Long Run when they ask about how you heard about them. This episode is brought to you by Mount to Coast.

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So the Boston double just happened, and it was unlike anything I've done before. I ran the course in reverse. 3:00 AM start at Boylston Street, all 26.2 miles back to Hopkinton in the dark.

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No crowds, no fanfare, just headlamps and the quiet version of one of the most iconic courses in the world. Mount to Coast put the whole activation together, and while I ran one way, seven people ran both ways.

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The full reverse overnight then turned around and ran the official Boston Marathon. 52.4 miles. These are the people Mount to Coast was built for.

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They launched a few years ago with a simple mission: make shoes for runners who go the distance. Road and trail models, sponsorship at Badwater 135 and the Vermont 100, and now a double Boston.

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That's their crowd.I ran in their shoes and they held up for every mile of it. Go check them out at mounttocoast.com and use code FTLR for 10% off your first pair or your second pair.

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My favorite shoe is the H1, their road-to-trail option, and the C1, which is their non-plated super trainer, and the shoe I ran the Reverse Boston in. Mount to Coast, transcend distance. Yeah. I was tested at 1,366

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mg per liter. Is that what that unit is? Mm-hmm. So what-- The, the math on that is per liter of sweat, and most people are losing a liter in... Well, I guess that's the highly variable part, right? Yes.

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Don't make me do math in my head. No math. Um- No math needed. No math needed. Yeah, so it's variable, right? Because you can have a low sweat loss with a high sodium concentration. Right.

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You can have a high sweat loss with a low sodium concentration. So, like, just because you sweat a lot doesn't automatically mean you're losing a ton of sodium. Like yes, you are losing sodium.

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We're all gonna lose sodium in sweat, but that's where it's very unique to each individual is that sweat sodium concentration. What do you think the main differences are between

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training and racing half marathons and marathons and then moving up in distance? Do you wanna know what came right to he- right to my mind? Yes. Having the will to do longer distances.

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[laughs] Where there's a will, there's a way. With the will, the, the will to push yourself through longer training, as someone who did one 50-miler and will never do another one again.

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[laughs] I meant from a f- a fueling standpoint. [laughs] Oh, I know, but I wanted to tell you what my first thought was. If it was rapid fire, that was- Yeah... my first thought. Yeah, yeah.

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Um, from a fueling perspective, yes. Like, obviously, so I like to think about, like, zoom out, right?

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Just by the nature of training for an ultra, your volume is very likely-- I mean, this, again, depends on the person, how you train, but your volume is likely going to be higher.

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You are going to be mon- putting more time in, day in and day out, and, like, so many runners love to hyper-fixate on their grams of carbohydrate per hour in their workouts that they forget to zoom out and, like, look at the big picture,

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and that is where, over time, many of them tend to fall short and get themselves in a little bit of a pickle in under-fueling, unintentional under-fueling, injuries, right?

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Um, micronutrient deficiencies, all of those things, because they're not taking in account all of the time and that energy output and demands.

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Like, the intensity training is obviously going to be different 'cause you're, like you said, you're, you're going threshold, sub-threshold.

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Like, y- the intensity is going to be higher if you-- for most people who are racing a half marathon, racing their marathon, whereas

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when I think about ultra, it's like, okay, intensity isn't gonna be as high, but you're gonna be out there a long time, even if you're fast, and that, in and of itself, has a high, is a high-demand activity.

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Let's go back to the training component. Mm-hmm. So for someone who's running more than, like, three or four miles a day-- So like, I'll, I'll walk you through my week as an example. On Tuesdays, I do 8 to 10.

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On Wednesdays, I do a workout that's, like, 10 to 12. Thursdays, 8 to 10. Fridays, 6 to 8. Saturday, long run, so, like, 14 to 18.

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And then Sunday, either a cross train or, like, 75% of the Saturday run. Sometimes Thursdays I'll swap that 8 to 10 to, uh, uh, like, 90 minutes on the bike instead. Mm-hmm.

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And I'm doing sauna in there a couple times a week. So, so it's, I don't know, 8, 8 to 10 hours of, of training- Mm-hmm... per week.

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Up until a couple of years ago, I would never take in fuel outside of the Saturday and sometimes Sunday runs throughout the week. Jail. [laughs] Straight to jail, no trial. [laughs] Straight to jail. Um,

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I know you are notorious for taking carbohydrate drink on an hour, uh, activity. Yes, sir.

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Um, talk to me about when peop- when and why people should think about incorporating, uh, something into their weekly training beyond just in their long runs. Mm-hmm.

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And is this all just a big scam by big sugar and big carbohydrate who benefits from, you know, David Roche talking about high carb fueling while he's sponsored by The Feed? Mm-hmm.

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Obviously, like, I also have a partnership with Precision, so I, I have a vested interest in promoting more carbohydrates on, on the run on a weekly basis. I've worked with Tailwind. I've worked with Skratch.

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Like, I love me some carbohydrates, um, and I love helping people find the, the option that makes the most sense for them. Mm-hmm.

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But, uh, but again, like, I have a vested interest in somebody listening to this thinking that they, they should consume more carbs and heading to precisionfuelandhydration.com and using code LONGRUN26 for 15% off your first purchase.

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But like, why is th- that not a, like, a total ruse? And, and when, when should people start thinking about, um, making that, making that addition? You know, I'm Team Big Carb, as you said, all the time.

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[laughs] I'm, I'm very generous with fueling guidelines. Like, I am always going to reach for fuel, even if, like, the, they, the guidelines say, "You don't need this."

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Um, and that is just- Or Steve Magness saying you don't need this. Are you trying to trigger me right now? [laughs]I saw that thread and I, like, started to reply and I was like, I, I can't- Yeah... I can't get through.

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Sit this one out. Sit this one out. Yeah, I was like, um, it doesn't matter. You know, um, not all men, but anyways, uh, [laughs]

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so to, to go back, the guidelines are going to say, like, if, if it's in over an hour to 90 minutes, 30 to 60 grams of carb.

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Um, once you get over that 90 minutes, that's where we wanna shift more towards over that 60 grams of carbohydrate.

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I think that's a great kind of like starting point for people, but speaking to ultra-marathoners who are putting in big volume, or like myself training for a 70.3, I am doubling or tripling most days of the week between strength, swim, bike, run,

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is that we need to zoom out and look at our training week as a whole, right? You're doing eight to 10 hours a week. Right now I'm probably like 12 to 14 hours a week in my training as I'm peaking.

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So when we think about overall carbohydrate needs, just like in general, it's based off, you know, how many hours a day are we working out at a moderate to high intensity, and 99% of people who come to me are

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way, way, way missing their carbohy- daily carbohydrate goals. I'm talking about like hundreds of grams of carbohydrate.

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So to me, being more generous with our fueling is an easy way to stay ahead of things and/or kind of get ourselves out of an unintentional under-fueling hole that, for the most part, if you are training for an ultra or doubling and tripling, there's, you're, there's not much to be lost by taking in 30 grams of carbohydrate on an hour run, especially if you're gonna turn out a big workout the next day, right?

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Like, there's only things to be gained because when we're taking in those outside carbohydrates in the workout, our body isn't dipping into our glycogen stores, which most endurance athletes are probably running kind of like Girl Boss and close to the sun on those glycogen stores, where they're, like, barely topped off or they're pretty depleted.

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Uh, and, like, we don't need our glycogen stores to be top topped off, like, in a carb load, you know, before a race all the time. Like, that is not something we're aiming for. But most athletes are depleted.

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So if we can take in, like, I'm thinking I have an hour run later. It's a tempo effort. I swam 4,000 yards this morning. I lifted.

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So, like, I am going to take two scoops of Tailwind and a gel with me, and that is j- that is over the guidelines. That is generous for that hour run.

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But I know that I did efforts this morning, and I have a long ride tomorrow, and this is one little thing that, like, it's that consistency, stacking boom, boom, boom, thing after thing.

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So when life happens and, like, I have a long meeting and I'm like, "Oh crap, it's been three hours since I ate something. I am hungry," like, this is a little thing to bridge the gap, basically. Long story long.

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[laughs] Makes sense. So when I talk through my week, that's like an idealized state. It's not always like that, but it's often like that.

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Um, my context is I don't have kids, and I can get my training in and then usually dive straight into meetings, but I get to eat beforehand.

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I'm-- About 40% of the, the people who responded to a survey from this audience have kids. So let's- Mm-hmm... let's talk about the component of, like, people who can't afford to be tired after their long run. Yeah.

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We've babysat, um, Kate's niece and nephew a couple of times, and, like- Mm... it was, like, full on. Like, you go for a run- Yeah... and then it's like you're back in it. Um- Yeah...

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and God bless parents who, who, like, go do their thing and then can't just, like, sit on the couch or scroll Instagram for the next- Yeah... uh, nine hours. I'm joking about that. But, um,

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where, how and where does this help with, like, removing the brain fog and- Yep... um, and, and avoiding the, like, three-hour nap that, that I used to need so often post long run? Yeah.

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Uh, I mean, the in-workout fueling is a big piece of this, but just also kind of having dialed in fueling frameworks of before, during, after, especially after with my people with kiddos, right?

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We're coming up, you know, my clients we're coming up with a strategy of like, okay, these are our tools, and, like, we need to make this as easy as possible for you to get at least some carbohydrates and protein in right after because you gotta get home.

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Like, you gotta take, you know, kid one here, kid two there. You have the-- and then, you know, go into your workday. So it's even more of a priority so you can show up and, like, this is for anyone, kids, no kids. Like,

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w- some of the early signs of under-fueling are those energy crashes, brain fog, in, you know, increased feelings of anxiety, depressed mood, poor sleep, right? I know it's hard with kiddos and the sleep.

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Like, that's, that's where things get messy. [laughs] But when we are kind of in that under-fueled state, even if it's just, like, within one day, those are some of the things we're going to feel.

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I always tell my clients, "If you feel that energy s- slump in the afternoon, go get a snack," right? That is often your body just, like, asking for energy.

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So being generous with fueling those workouts, especially 'cause time is precious, right?

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Um, you're not going to get the full meal in right away, kind of like maybe me or Jonathan might after our workouts before we head into meetings.

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Um, so keeping, big piece of keeping that energy up and helping that recovery so you can chase all the kiddos is gonna be that in-workout fueling, that pre-workout fueling, and kind of coming up with, you know, a simple recovery fueling strategy as well.

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Makes sense. Let's, let's pivot back to Vacation Races and Bryce and Zion. So as I mentioned earlier, we have a partnership with Vacation Races.

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They, they put on amazing event experiences just outside of national parks across the U.S. I think thatMore people should touch grass and going to national parks counts as touching grass.

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Um, it's so cool to be in these spaces. You and I spent, um, m- the, the before times, like couple of days, uh, right before the world shut down in 2020 in Bryce. It's just like an otherworldly place.

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Like, what a cool part of the country with the geology and what are they called? Hoodoos. Um- Hoodoos.

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[laughs] And just like, it's- it's such a cool, um, everything's red and, and the rocks are like tall and skinny and awesome and bizarre. Um, so, so Vacation Races is hosting the Bryce Canyon Ultras September 19th.

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There've been a bunch of people that have used, uh, the code FTLR to sign up for 15% off. I'm thinking about doing that race. Uh, it would be really cool if we get a bunch of people to sign up and, and do it.

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We can do a little For The Long Run meetup, or it'll be it For The Short Run before The Long Run. Um- [laughs]... but, uh, talk to me about, you've been to a lot of national parks recently. Uh- Yeah...

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talk to me about some of the places you've been and, and what you love. Yeah, I was just gonna say, just about this time last year, I was out in Utah.

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Uh, I did the Mighty Five in Utah, including Bryce, Zion, Capitol Reef, Arches, and Canyonlands National Park. Cool.

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It's a very cool loop if you ever have the chance to do it, um, to see all of the different types of rocks. It's [laughs]- Rocks rock... rocks rock. Geology rocks. I mean, Utah rocks, truly. Utah rocks.

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And, um, yeah, so that was a really epic trip and I was so excited to see Bryce in a different light with less snow. Um, Bryce is at, what 8,000 feet, I think. Yeah.

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Um, for people who don't know me, I am a sea level queen, so, um, it's always good for me to get a little thin air in these [laughs] into these lungs. In the pipes. [laughs] Into the pipes. Um, so yeah, it is epic.

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We did sunrise at Bryce, which was beautiful on the rocks as well. I'm imagining with the race start, you're gonna get that nice sunrise as well, too. Um, you also can't go wrong with Zion.

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I actually got a permit for Angels Landing, so I did that with the chains and skinny rocks. Yeah, I'm a no on, I'm a no on that one. Yeah. Uh, I didn't have many takers to go with me.

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I just had, had one other person go with me, but that was totally, totally worth it. Um, it's just such a, a, a gorgeous part of the country and very, very different. Like went to Moab, too, while we were out there.

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Did some like little dune buggy riding, which is very different than, you know, self-propelling yourself, but also just something very different and very cool to do.

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If you ever got me to do another ultra again, it would be something associated with Vacation Races and outside of these national parks. [laughs] That's a big if. Well, see you Sep- September 19th in, uh, in Utah.

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Um, okay, let's, let's pivot to another brand that we've been working together on. I wanna talk about-- We- we've talked about carbohydrates. Mm-hmm. Let's pivot to protein. Big protein guy over here.

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Let's talk about the protein requirements for runners. And yeah, tell me, tell me 30,000-foot view of, of protein.

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So yes, protein-- Well, protein is having a moment right now, and while protein is important and something we wanna consider, I wanna share one of the trends that I'm kind of seeing with my athletes is that we're so focused on protein that we're kind of missing the mark on other things.

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Whereas I'm encouraging people to be

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intentional about their protein and getting good protein sources in, and quality protein and timing it right, especially in the post-workout window, but also at our meal times, and kind of putting those portions in a way that are gonna support our protein needs.

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Um, it's one of those things that like more isn't always better. It's about let's find the right amounts and let's find some quality sources for you.

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So typically, for runners, endurance athletes, you know, again, these numbers are always moving targets, and it's very nuanced from person to person, but in general, like 1.2 to 1.8 grams per kilogram of body weight.

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1.2 is on the lower end. I tend to not go that low. Um, 1.8 on the higher end.

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Like if we have an injury that we're healing kind of in that catabolic state, it might be a little bit higher, but that's, you know, kind of that typical range, and it's something I have a lot of athletes play around with to, okay, make sure we're getting enough protein, we're getting that quality protein in, but also not at the expense of carbohydrates.

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So my people who struggle to get over 200 grams of carbohydrates when their needs are 400 grams, we might dial that protein back a little bit, be more intentional with the timing and the quality as we work to dial those carbohydrates up and kind of find that better balance between the two macronutrients.

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As we're thinking about that a- as it relates to going longer in races- Mm-hmm... when I first started going longer in, in racing in 2023, uh, I did, I guess it was a six-hour race. Mm-hmm.

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And Kylie Van Horn suggested, a fellow dietician, suggested- Mm-hmm... that I consider some protein. Mm-hmm.

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So at what point in the fueling process of an ultra or even a marathon that takes a long time, like when should some- Yeah...

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when and why should somebody consider adding protein into their, into their plan?Well, of course, to no surprise to either of us, the queen Kylie w- is not wrong. Um [laughs]

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Protein is definitely something I have, um, athletes incorporate into their ultra plan. Not a ton, right?

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We're looking, like, maybe, like, 5 to 10 grams per hour, give or take, um, depending on the athlete and the duration. At what point in the race? Not at the beginning, right? Not at the beginning.

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We wanna g- usually get, like,

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depending on how long the race is and the person, we're getting at least two hours under our belt, if not, like, two and a half to three if we're gonna be going, like, over-- If we're gonna be hitting that six-hour mark,

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around that time, like, two and a half to three is when I'll have people start adding it in. Even if someone is doing...

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Like, I, when I'm training for ultras, I'm routinely doing longer than two and a half hours in, in training. Yeah. Well, you should be trying what you're doing on race day in training, right? That's true. I rest my case.

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[laughs] So I sto- I started at four hours. Um- Uh-huh... and I had, I had one beef stick- Yeah... um, because it had a little salt, and it was tasty. Yeah.

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Um, but I was really nervous to, like, incorporate that because- Mm... things had been going so well. Uh-huh. And my GI system was going w- things were, things were going smoothly.

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What does it do, and why, why do we not hear people talking about this? Yeah.

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Well, one of the reasons, I think, is because, honestly, when we're thinking about, like, ultra training, what are a lot of people using in their fueling? Food. The average person. Real food. Food. Real food, right?

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And by the nature of the real food that we're eating, they are-- It's pretty easy- Yeah...

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to get, like, that 5 to 10 grams per hour because it's not something like carbs where we have to be, like, really hyper-focused on it.

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So I think it's just by the nature of what we're consuming, because I have not worked with anyone who has taken straight gels for their entire ultramarathon, right?

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There's usually something else we're incorporating in there, for the most part. So, one, I think that's why we don't hear a lot about it, 'cause you don't have to think too hard.

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We're getting some real food in, depending what that looks like. But why we want to do this, um, it helps to mitigate muscle breakdown. Obviously, there is gonna be some muscle breakdown,

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but that little bit of protein, that 5 to 10 gram hours, it helps to kind of cut those losses where your body starts to break down, um, muscle for energy, those amino acid oxidation that can happen.

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Um, it's also going to help a little bit after the race with muscle repair and recovery, reducing the damage and soreness. You're still gonna be, um, sore. Um [laughs] but it's also a key piece in that.

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And then also just by, like, the nature, right, the lower intensity, you're gonna be out there a long time. It is gonna give you, like, a little bit of sat- satiation, right? Like, staying power as well. Makes sense.

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If you go to a 100-mile race, you'll see, as time goes along, you'll see people starting to, um, consume recovery mix- Mm-hmm... uh, which surprised me the first time that I saw that.

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Like, people taking down Skratch or Tailwind recovery mix- Mm-hmm... five, 10 hours into a race with five, 10 hours left to go.

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It's like, you're not done, but you're still taking, like, a, like, a third of a serving- Mm-hmm... um, to get, you know, the 5 to, 5 to 10 grams, which is, um, a really interesting way- Yeah... to go about it.

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And if it, if it works for you, great. And those products are really easy to digest, right? Right. Like, that's the perk of that product. It's easy to digest. Um, your body's gonna utilize it quickly.

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It's got some carbohydrate in it, a little bit of protein. You know, those recovery drinks, even though I am not ultra-training, are on auto-ship for me- [laughs]... because I, I have them every day after every workout.

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Choccy milk- Yep... recovery powder. [laughs] Love it. Yep. This episode is sponsored by Bouldered On, and if you're mapping out your 2026 road race season, this one deserves an early spot on the calendar.

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Bouldered On is more than a single race, with a 5K, 10K, half, and full marathon, and kids races. It's an ideal weekend whether you're hunting a PR or towing the start line for the very first time.

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Use code FTLR2026 to take $20 off your half or full marathon. And the fun doesn't stop at the finish line. The whole weekend is a big celebration of running, Colorado, and truly great humans. You won't wanna miss it.

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Visit boulderedon.org to register and use code FTLR2026 for $20 off. Huge thanks to Bouldered On for putting together such a fantastic community event.

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For those who aren't familiar, I put together this podcast network of 35, almost 40 shows, with the intent of creating a framework for non-running brands to, to play in the space. I wanna- Mm...

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I want to create a scenario where brands that are relevant to runners can test their way into a space where they, they should fit and they don't currently have competition. So

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it's simple to do partnerships with watch brands, shoe brands, nutrition brands that make sports nutrition products, but there's a lot of noise in that, in that space, and, uh, everybody seems to have their preferences already.

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For other products, like you've seen me share about recently, Caraway Home, they make kitchenware. Do I need kitchenware to help me run? No. Do I need to eat to help me run? Yes. So I'm constantly looking for, um...

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And, and I talk way more about this over on Substack and in thr- and my other podcast, Long Run Labs, if people wanna dive more into the business side of the outdoor space.

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But, um, one of the other brands that, that I've been speaking to for, like, a year now is a meat delivery service called Good Ranchers, and the contact that I have over there, his name is Brad, he was, um, doing partnerships for, um, podcast networks for professional sports teams.And so he's quite familiar with what I'm attempting to do, which is bring more dollars into this space and, uh, obviously meat and, and protein is a,

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not a thing that you're gonna eat while you're running, but it's a thing that will help you as a runner.

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So I did a deep dive into my running data, my blood work, and all sorts of information from my training log over the last 11 years, thanks to Claude, and Claude pointed out that I run best when my ferritin is, is high.

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Mm. Um, high being above 70. That's not groundbreaking. We, we all-- many of us know that ferritin is important to, to, um, perform.

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But when my ferritin is low, I'll often note things in my training log like, "No power," or, "I was tired," or, um, "I didn't have any turnover in workouts or, or long runs or at higher altitudes."

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And so I've been trying to find a partner who can, who can do this, and so we've landed on Good Ranchers. Uh, you and I have both been testing out the, the product- Mm-hmm... which is meat delivery. It's delicious.

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Um, and again, we're br- we have seven podcasts that they're sponsoring, so we have a couple of dieticians that are being sponsored, a couple of pro athletes.

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Over at Trail Society, um, Keely Hedinger has been talking about, um, iron and, and such for, for a decade now. Um, Kurt Malcolm and Hillary Allen also, so we have the validation of professional athletes.

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We have the validation of, of dieticians talking about it. When I approached you with this one, what were your, what were your thoughts, um, about having a, a meat delivery sponsor? Let's go, brother.

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[laughs] That was my first thought. [laughs] Uh, no, but like I said in a, a message offline that we were talking, I was like, "This," I mean, this to me is, it's natural, right?

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Like, it's t- to me, I have always been a, I've been a meat eater. Um, I find I f- you know, I had toyed with no red meat for a while in a past life, and then I started adding it back in

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and eating more of it, and I was like, "Wow, I feel better."

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[laughs] And you know, like, yes, we have the science and all of the information, but sometimes it is important for athletes to, like, if we try something, let's see how it makes us feel and, like, how that stacks up over time.

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So for me, it's a no-brainer because I, one; two, just kind of knowing my habits, I need to be intentional about getting enough protein because I'm, like, carbs. I love carbs.

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Um, but if I'm not as intentional or have options that I like, I can be picky about my protein and not get enough.

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So to me, having something like this where, like, I know I pick, I pick the box, um, with a little bit more variety than some of the other hosts, um, with some [laughs] with bacon.

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I was like, "Well, I have to get a box of bacon." [laughs] I think I was the only one who got a box of bacon. Um, bacon, strip steaks, pork chops, I think there were some bratwurst, um, chicken nuggets.

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I love chicken nuggets. Um, people, some people cringe, but to me, you know, one of the things we know about endurance training is that it can alter our appetite, but we know we have high energy needs.

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I always have some chicken nuggies in my freezer for when I'm like, "I, my appetite kind of sucks right now," but, like, I know I need a meal. It's always easy to eat nuggets.

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It's always easy to eat chicken nuggies 'cause you could put 'em in the air fryer. I usually do them with tater tots and a vegetable, unfortunately.

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I've had a weird relationship with vegetables lately where w- I feel like a five-year-old and I'm forcing myself, um, just to keep it real.

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But anyways, I, circling back, like, to me, now I have a freezer where I have options of, like, I have low appetite and low bandwidth, great.

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I'm gonna take these chicken nuggies and put 'em in my air fryer, or I have high bandwidth and I'm planning girl dinner with my friend tomorrow and I said, "Hey, I'll bring some strip steaks over." [laughs] Hell yeah.

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So, and it's nice because it's a variety of different proteins too. It's, you know, because of course, like, thinking about iron, thinking about protein, thinking about those nutrients is key.

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But we also need to think about that food is more than just fuel. It's, like, what texture, what taste, what flavors? Like, how can I... Oh, a pork chop? Great.

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I can season this and cook this a different way to give myself some variety, so I'm also not getting bored and disenchanted with eating. Love it. Yeah.

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Showed up at my door and I was like, this is great because now it's just a bunch of different options in the freezer, and the, the quality is super high. And Kate, my girlfriend, doesn't eat meat, and so- Mm-hmm...

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for me, it's like I have to buy it and cook it and eat it all immediately. And so the, the ability to have it frozen and can be like, "Yeah- You can keep it till-... tomorrow I'm gonna do this."

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And in the individual packets too, the packaging is fantastic. So it's fun because they're doing a small media buy on, you know, as they would consider it. Mm-hmm.

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But for us, it's like a meaningful amount of investment in seven running podcasts. And so I wrote about this in a substack, but it's like we want...

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We saw what happened with, with, um, Emma Bates, and we saw what happened with Grayson Murphy. Um, I'm releasing-- Today is April 2nd.

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Tomorrow I have a podcast coming out with Grayson Murphy where she talked about announcing pregnance, uh, announcing a new sponsor seven and a half months pregnant with Solomon. Mm-hmm.

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Whereas Emma Bates mentioned that UCAN dropped her and didn't renew her when they found out she was pregnant. And so the ability to bring brands like this into the space where the athlete,

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as a, you know, pregnant... mom or pre, expecting mom or somebody who's not performing at their, their peak potential.

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Like, the ability to have these partners that are not requiring elite performance, but still want the validation from athletes and, and dieticians and whatnot, like, it's good for everyone if we can- Mm-hmm...

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if we can get this, um, if we can get this going. So, like, the brand has seen a nearly half-million-dollar proposal of, okay, let's say this works, then what? Mm-hmm.

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Then we're, then they're sponsoring 20 podcasts, they're sponsoring professional athletes, they're sponsoring races, and the, the top end of the sport can stop competing with each other from, uh, in regards to the, the ad dollars and partnership dollars that come from the shoe brands and watch companies and nutrition brands, and they can begin to explore or continue to explore the stuff that's a part of their life.

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And this is like, for me, it's a fun, it's a fun challenge to see if we can make this happen.

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So the call to action for those listening who like eating meat and want it to show up at their door is go to goodranchers.com, use code IRON, which takes $25 off, and you save even more if you do a subscription, um, which also allows you to get a, an extra free product every time the box shows up.

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You can, uh, I, I'm getting a box every six weeks. You can do it every eight weeks. You can do it, you know, whatever, whatever you want there. Yeah.

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And then in a post-purchase survey, when they ask, "How did you hear about Good Ranchers?"

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Mention For the Long Run, um, because if we can prove that this audience, meaning running broadly, is interested in a, a program and a company like this,

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I think it can, it can start to really professionalize and protect the athletes and professionalize the media side of it, um, quite a lot more than it currently is. So anyway, very long, [chuckles] rambly- [chuckles]...

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rambly suggestion. Uh, if you want high-quality protein to show up at your door, uh, this is a, this is one of the ways to do it. Yeah. I mean, and it's also delicious as well.

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But like you said, I don't know, I just look at how many people spend so much money on supplements that are unregulated and like, yeah, supplements are something I use as a dietician, very calculated, like, in my practice, but, like, this is actual food that we, we need to consume, but it's also quality and again, can create that connection.

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You can plan a girl dinner with your meat box, and some of my friends were like, "Meat box? We gotta have a smoker party." And I was like, "Let's smoke some meat." Yeah, that sounds- You know? That sounds great.

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[both laughing] What is, what is firing you up in the, the running or nutrition space right now, or what, what hot takes are you dying to get off your chest? Ooh, what hot takes? Oh, man. Um,

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guys, I just, my one hot take for sure is I've always been a, a hard no to UCAN.

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Um, and I'm glad that the internet has affirmed this for me, if nothing else, with their marketing tactics and like, again, yes, we have been marketing products, but products that we believe in and we stand by, whereas I look at their marketing and, um, it is, it's preying on runners, right?

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It's preying on people's vulnerabilities, and that is always what makes me cringe the most. So while I hate what happened, and it's, uh, you know, I'm not a mom myself, but moms are amazing. We truly hate to see it.

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Um, but I'm glad it at least brought light t- more light to people who may have been blindsided by their marketing tactics before, um, that, you know, if a product is making you feel bad about yourself and how you look or how fast you run or eating sugar, that's usually a big, big red flag for me.

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Um, so that is one of my hot takes. [chuckles] That's probably my biggest hot take right now. I was like, finally, right? [laughs] Yeah, it's a tough one. Um, the product is great if you're a diabetic, right? Yes.

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And- I think that's the only time I've used it, ever... there are good people at that brand, and I feel for them. Mm-hmm. And like you, I have not experienced their marketing in a favorable manner- Yeah...

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and I haven't experienced their product in a favorable manner as well. Um, it used to be what I fueled with, and- Yeah... I didn't, I didn't know better.

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Um, and I'm stoked for Emma Bates to see what happens when she puts more carbohydrates in her system in a marathon. I know. Like I, I can't wait to see how f- how strong she can finish. Yeah.

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And maybe she was taking other gels, um, or, or carb mix in her bottles. But, um, she's always finishing the race with a, with a UCAN gel in her hand, so maybe that's what's going down at the, at the end.

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And I don't wanna disparage or, or, you know, pile on or anything, but to your point, like consumers need to be m- mindful of the intent and the, the way that messaging is delivered. Mm-hmm.

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And so when, when a brand is trying to make you feel bad about something or pushing low carb or like there's enough consensus to suggest that most runners should not be low-carb athletes. Yeah. There are outliers.

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It's, by definition, if you're listening to this, you're probably not the outlier. Mm-hmm. That's just statistically, right? Um, it's like when people are like, "Oh, I only need five hours of sleep."

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It's like y- it's very unlikely that you are the person that needs five hours of sleep versus, um, seven to, seven to nine. Um, so yeah, I guess it's just like-I don't know.

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What, what guidance do you have as a, as a dietician with expert skills in nutrition communication? How do people, how do people keep an eye out for predatory marketing versus...

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Marketing is ultimately, like, trying to sell you a better version of yourself. If you can- Yeah...

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if you can help somebody believe that, that, that the product or the service or the solution will lead to a better version of, of your existence, you might buy it.

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Um, that's why, um, so many car commercials have so little to do with the car and the act of driving, but it's like looking happy, it's being ha- it's being with beautiful people.

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It's like all of these, like, vibes versus the, the, like, the performance capabilities of this vehicle that they want you to spend, you know, $50,000 on. Mm-hmm.

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So how do, how do people who don't have a bajillion hours of nutrition credential, um, studying, h- how do, how do we go about navigating the internet these days?

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Yeah, I mean, it's just a, a lot of it is critical thinking. Um, and also, [sighs] I always think of this example where a client sent me this whole post about, "Oh, sugar isn't the problem.

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You're not getting enough sodium. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Here's a study. I'm an internet doctor, and here's my code for Redmond's Real Salt." Right?

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[laughs] Um, so- Right, if everybody's selling you something, and look, we just spent an hour making recommendations about products and services. Yep. And it's, it's a trust factor. I wrote- Yeah...

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I wrote a piece about why fit compounds, and the whole, the whole piece was like you have a finite amount of social capital to make recommendations about- Mm-hmm... things on the internet.

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And if you're giving shit recommendations, your, your ability to make recommendations and, and the belief that you're making good recommendations goes down. Mm-hmm.

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And so for the, for the longest time, I, it was, this was not how I put food on my table, and I had the privilege of saying no to everything that I didn't want to promote.

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And so it trained me to only say yes to things that, um, that I truly believe in, and I feel like that's trained my audience to also acknowledge- Mm-hmm...

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that, like, if I'm putting my name behind something, I've tested it, I've used it, I believe in it, and the people behind it are good people, too. Yeah. And there's so much... And, and this isn't, like, a,

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like, this way is the best way, but, but there's so much junk out there that's being peddled because brands have high, big budgets, and they- Yep... need their messaging out there.

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And so, sorry I cut you off before I jumped on my long- That's okay... diatribe. It's okay. I mean, like, no trust, right?

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Um, it's, it's about being, like, oh, okay, well, this guy says he's a doctor, but he has this code. Like, is this really clickbaity, right? Is this messaging around this trying to make me scared?

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Or like I think about, like, you know, I think about the pink tax, right? I'm thinking about, um, Alyssa Olnick, right? Is that how you say her last name? Dr. Lys, Doc Lys. Yep.

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And, you know, every workout is being, you know, pink bow slapped on it, preying on menopausal women and, and perimenopause and, you know. So it's kind of like how much is this sensationalized?

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Like, how much is this clickbaity or ragebaity or trying to get, you know, prey at a fear of mine or an inadequacy, right? I also think about, like, you know, sorry, you can, the acts like a GLP-1, right? Yeah.

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What, like, what? Like, ugh. [laughs] Like, anything with, like, these very grand promises, um, no, like, sugar is bad. Like, automatically calling something bad out of nowhere, right?

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And it's like when I think about it in the nutrition standpoint, too, and, um, thinking about, like, the dose makes the poison, right? So if you're, you're, you know, when everybody's like Cheerios cause cancer.

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What is it you have to eat? I don't even, I don't know the number, but it's something like you have to eat an egregious amount of Cheerios to get, like, any sort of, like, cancer-causing things, right?

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It's the dose makes the poison. Like, is this something that's, like, so inflated and, like, meant to make you scared? That's usually, or feel bad about yourself. Um, you know, like moms as well.

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Like, new moms and moms in general are constantly preyed upon in marketing because they, they are in a very vulnerable state, a very big life change. So thinking about that.

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Thinking about, like, marketing that is, like, pushing, like, to look a certain way, especially in the runners and fitness category.

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Um, like, m- you know, influencers kind of, like, using their body as their business card, right?

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Like, they tend to not have your be- maybe, maybe that macro coach can help you lose 10 pounds in two months or whatever it is, but, like, do they have your, your health in their best interest? Probably not, right?

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Like, is somebody, you know, in, in my space, are they going with a health first approach? Are, you know, are they kind of riding that middle line versus, like, being on extremes? Those are usually some of the...

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I could go on and on. I'm g- getting into a tangent in my head here. [laughs] I love it. This has been awesome.

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Um, hopefully for everyone that's made it this far, they found it informative and they've learned about some great brands. Um,

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Stevie, appreciate you and your wisdom as always, and the approachable way that you communicate, like, deeply complicated, uh, topics.

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Um, for those who wanna follow along with you and your, your food posts, your triathlon posts, and your, your dog posts, where can we find you on your corner of the internet? Yeah.

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You can find me @stevielinlin on Instagram. That's one N on the L-Y-N, L-Y-N.

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And you can also find me at stevielinrd.com, my podcast, Real Fuel with SLS, and you can check out my book, Power Up: A Young Woman's Guide to Winning with Sports Nutrition. Love it. Stevie, we did it. Thank you so much.

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We did it. Thank you. [upbeat music] That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs with friends, it's sad when it has to end. Join us next time as we continue to share inspiring stories from the running community.

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If you enjoyed this episode, please share it with a friend or training partner who you think would like it, too.

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This podcast was produced by Emma Benner of Sandy Boy Productions with musical composition by Brian Walters of Single Track Sound. Thank you for your support, and we'll see you out there.