[upbeat music] I had a moment where I was like, "Shoot, like, is this the end? Can I do this sport anymore?" It does feel sweeter and, like, and just, like, very grateful.
Just, like, I was afraid this was disappearing, so I'm now, like, very grateful that it's continuing. And like I said, like, it's not like I'm in the clear.
So every race that, like, I manage to, like, train for, and every race I manage to, like, finish, especially any race I manage to have a good race, it's like, okay, like, none of those things were guaranteed.
And so, like, I'm really grateful that they were able to occur. Welcome to For The Long Run.
We explore the why behind what keeps runners running long, strong, and motivated, and how they've been able to achieve sustainable excellence. I'm your host, Jonathan Levitt, and we're so glad you're here.
This one's for a specific crew, pun intended, and you'll know if it's you.
If you're headed to Western States this year, and especially if you're gonna be out there pacing or crewing a runner, I want you with us Thursday morning before the race.
We're doing a shakeout run with Amazefit in Olympic Valley. Easy miles, nothing heroic, just shaking the legs out before the big weekend, and Amazefit is taking care of coffee and bagels.
Western States is the runner's day, but you and I both know the truth.
The race gets run on the backs of the people supporting that runner, the pacer pulling them through the dark miles, the crew at the aid stations who somehow have the exact thing you need before you know you need it.
That's the community I want in one place Thursday morning before the chaos starts.
Amazefit is along for it, and if you've been curious about their watches, the pacer mapping is useful for keeping your runner on course when it counts.
So if you're going to be at Western States pacing, crewing, or just in the area and you wanna start the weekend right, come find us Thursday morning in Olympic Valley.
I've got a limited number of their new Cheetah 2 Ultra watches to share with runners who are crewing or pacing or supporting. Reach out to me directly, and I'll make sure you have all of the details on both items.
This episode's brought to you by Precision Fuel and Hydration, who just dropped a watermelon chew, and this story's a good one.
They built it with Rachel Entrickin to beat flavor fatigue, and she used it in fueling her winning run at the Cocodona 250 this year. 30 grams of carbs per pack, and trust me, they're delicious.
I got to try them already, and they're delightful. Two ways to get them.
If you're at Trail Con, come run with us and Amazefit on Thursday at 7:30 in the morning from Coffee Bar and try the chews before they're even out, or find the watermelon stall by the Precision stage in the event village.
Not in Tahoe? They go on sale on Tuesday, June 23rd, at precisionhydration.com. Use code LongRun26 for 15% off. And welcome back. We have Zach Miller joining on For The Long Run.
Zach, this has been a conversation I've been, I've been wanting to have for, for years. So excited to, uh, to have you on here. Yeah. Um, good to be here. Uh, thank- thanks for having me on. Yeah.
So we, um, [chuckles] we went for a run up the Manitou Incline in 2018, and, uh, we had dinner afterwards.
And you were, you were logging some pretty big weeks at the time, and I was just getting into trail running and learning about trail running. And I asked you a question about, like, "Why are you doing this?"
And you, you put your fork down and talked for 10 minutes. And, uh, after, after that answer, I was like, "Hmm, maybe I should, uh, maybe I should start a podcast." So we've- [chuckles]...
come full circle and, and the question I've started asking lately on this podcast is, uh, who is Zach? Man, you're asking a lot of people about me then, I guess. Uh. [laughs] No, I'd be curious to know what they said.
I don't know. I guess I'm just, like, guy that likes to run and, but also likes to do a lot of other stuff, too. Uh, I'm an East Coast guy. Grew up in the East Coast. Uh, studied engineering on the East Coast.
Wandered my way onto a cruise ship. Found my way into ultrarunning. Um, have kind of had just, like, a very non-traditional lifestyle of living everywhere from a cruise ship, to an off-grid cabin, to a,
to a bus, to a now kind of part-time in a bus, part-time in a house. Also building a house.
I guess I'm sort of like a jack-of-all-trades maybe, um, who just, like, likes to do a lot of running in addition to all that other stuff. So yeah, I, I think I'm kind of hard to fit in a box.
I'm just me, and I just try to be me. [laughs] I love that. And that's, that, that's kind of it. [chuckles] Yeah. L- I love that answer.
What-- One of the things we were talking about back in, uh, back in Manitou Springs, we w- I was, I was so curious about how people run so many miles and, like I said, I was just getting into learning about ultrarunning and learning about trail running more broadly.
And I, I asked you something to the effect of, like, h- how do you do it, or why do you do it? And you were running, I think at the time, 150 miles a week. Maybe you are, you know, at th- at this point as well.
Um, it takes a lot of, of things to enable that type of performance. What is it about that volume of work and that, that intensity that you run, um, that, that really stokes, stokes the fire for you?
Yeah, I think mostly I just really, I just really like to run. I enjoy the rhythm of it. I enjoy the places I go while doing it.
I really enjoy the feeling of being fit and strong and just being able to go out and do stuff. It's just kind of part of my lifestyle. It helps me feel productive and I guess, like, successful in a way, you know.
It makes me feel like I've done something for the day, uh, if I've ran. But I also just, I just really enjoy it. Like, I, like, I've told people before, like, I run a lot of, um-- I mean, actually, like, this year, um,
my, my total run volume I, I would say is actually maybe been a bit lower, uh, this year. Um, I've had some big weeks, but I have not been, like, staying up at those super high weeks for too long this year.
Um- Weeks that I've strung together consistently at really high volume has been, like, a mix of running and other things.
So, like, lower volume run and then, like, a bunch of extra hours, like, skiing and cycling and things like that. But yeah, I just really enjoy it.
But like, yeah, in the past, I've been, like, pretty, like, a pretty big volume junkie, and I, and I've kind of explained to people, I'm like, "Yeah, I, I might-- I don't know if it's ideal to train that much, but I enjoy training."
So [chuckles] like, you know, when you get-- w- when you start getting, like, trying to be, like, the best athlete you can be, you kinda get to this... You can get to this point where it's like,
"Well, actually, like, maybe I should hold back. Maybe I should pull the reins a little because, like, I know I enjoy it, but it might actually not be, like, the best for optimal performance to, like, train that much."
But that's up to you how you wanna do it. Like, I think I was always also kind of like, "Well, I like it," so, you know. I don't know if it's-- It's hard to know what's the 100% most ideal way to train.
Um, and I probably lean a little more towards, like, the volume side at times simply because I enjoy it. Um, but recently, I've been holding the reins a little more, and, and I actually like getting, like, um...
I don't know. I like having some extra time. I like having some extra quality maybe in my runs. Um, and yeah, I don't always feel like I need to be out there for, like, half the day training.
[chuckles] Has the carb revolution kinda influenced your ability to spend more time out there and feel, feel better as, as time goes on? Or- [chuckles]... has that always been a part of your routine? I've-- Well, yeah.
The [chuckles] hearing the carb revolution is kind of funny to me.
I'm, I'm still sort of, like, not quite sure what to make of all that carbohydrate, uh, excitement, [chuckles] you might say, that has been circulating lately.
Um, I mean, what I would say to that is, like, I've always been a huge eater my whole life. Like, I remember as a little kid, somehow I grew up with, like, hearing these stories of my dad and how much he could eat.
Um, I think as my dad got older, he, you know, those were maybe the reputations of his 20s and 30s, and I think, you know, as I got older, obviously, my dad also got older, and he maybe didn't live up to that reputation as much.
But I remember growing up hearing those stories. And so, like, kinda funny to think about pro-probably one of the best things that happened for me
as an athlete was that I grew up with this, I don't know if you say culture or this, like- Role model... impression or, uh, y- that, that, that it was, like,
it was, like, um, like, admirable or, like, kind of cool to be able to eat a lot of food [chuckles]. You know? Like, when w- Like, we'd be on, like,
trips with the youth group, and we'd almost, like, compete to see who can eat the most sandwiches at lunch, you know, and stuff.
Yeah, I think, I think as, like, for a kid who was really active and who really liked sports and who eventually found his way into endurance sport, probably one of the best things that happened to me was to grow up with that mindset of, like, it's a good thing to be able to eat a lot.
And I was always kinda proud of my ability to eat a lot, and so I've always been, like, a big eater.
I did go through some phases of, like, "Oh, I'm not gonna eat sugar," you know, these, like, healthy phases where I was like-- And they may have not been so healthy, 'cause I was restricting things like sugar, um, where I, like, still ate, but I didn't eat, like, sweets.
And you know, I look back on that and was like, "Eh, I probably didn't need to do that."
But at least through my whole, like, through the majority of my life, I've pretty much always been a big eater, even though my habits have changed in some ways throughout. But yeah, so...
But I mean, right now, I mean, for me, I guess with the current, like, sort of what you're asking, um, about is now the eating is, like, a lot more targeted, like, in training and in racing.
And I've kind of been toying with that for a long time, practicing nutrition and kind of toying with how much I can put in and whatnot. And, and now lately it's, it's not so much a goal of, like, how much can I put in.
It's more, like, my current game, you know, in, in a world where it seems like everybody's kinda like, "Well, you have to do more, and you have to do more.
You have to do more," I'm like, I'm like, "No, you don't necessarily have to do more. You have to do what works."
And right now I'm trying to, like, understand my body and figure out, like, what works and have, like, a more mature, like, sort of understanding of the system rather than just, like, a spreadsheet I'm trying to follow.
You know, like, there might be a strategy, but a nutrition plan I think needs to be, like, adaptable because it's gonna depend on, like, effort levels, altitude, heat.
Like, all of those things can, like, you know, I think can impact it.
So, my wife is a di-dietician, and we talk a bunch about, like, nutrition and strategy and stuff and, and it's really-- And I'm not saying that I have it dialed in, but right now I'm, like, kind of not so much on, like, I just need to do more.
I'm just like, I need to figure out what the right amounts of things are, what the r-ratios are, and how I adjust those as conditions change and sort of, like, where my range is.
Because, like, what we're finding is, like, I can go out and run and be, like, at this level and actually have a good run, and I can go out at this much higher level and also have a good run.
And we're also-- So we're kinda like, "Well, that's good," because, like, in a race, you might need to be, like, over, like, like, this level might not work all race, you know?
So it's good to know that I can kind of, like, still perform at a high level Over like a variety of like carbohydrates per hour or liters per hour or things like that.
Yeah, I think more broadly you're-- I've heard the saying, "There's no such thing as over-training, just under-fueling."
And, and, you know, when you're putting up the miles like you're putting up, you, you kinda have to be a competitive eater just to, to not get injured and to feel good on a day-to-day basis.
I was laughing at the, the pride in eating as much as, as you can.
I, I went to hockey camp growing up, and we were-- we did it at a, a college campus, and we would go to the, the dining hall, and we would have chicken nugget eating competitions at lunch, which was- Mm-hmm...
not ideal knowing we were skating like 30 minutes later. But, um, I put- Yeah... down 50 chicken nuggets one day, and I was pretty [laughs] pretty proud of that. Yeah. That's not bad. Yeah.
I mean, some days it is like a bit of, like a bit of a job. I don't know. And, and even like I'm not to say perfect at it. Like a lot of times I eat a decent breakfast, a decent carbohydrate-heavy breakfast.
But then a lot of times I train like in the middle of the day, so I, uh, there's a lot of days I honestly don't really eat lunch. I-- and I just like, 'cause I'm out training and I'm just like
guzzling calories on the run, and then I come back and I eat like a big dinner.
Jess, my wife, I think she kinda knows that, and she'll be kinda like, "Well, we need to get like a lot of calories in this dinner because like I know you kinda just like drink sugar throughout the afternoon."
[laughs] You know, "So we gotta get some like nutrition in you." Um, or the other night we were, we just got back from a little training trip to Moab and, um, we went to dinner at night and then after we were leaving...
Like I ate this like big piece of prime rib and this baked potato and this asparagus and a salad, and I was like pretty full when we left. But I trained really hard that day, and she was like, "Are you..."
She's like, "Do you think you need dessert?" Like, and I was like, and I, and normally I would jump on dessert, but I'm like, "Man, I'm like full." And I'm like, "Do you think I need dessert?"
And I could kinda sense that like- [laughs]... one, maybe she wa- maybe sh- one, maybe she- She wanted dessert... wanted dessert. Uh, but I think also she was like concerned about like me and like getting enough in.
So we like, I pulled a U-turn and we drove, we drove back down the road and went to Wendy's, and I got like a large Frosty and like...
And then of course, classic fashion, right, like as everybody says it, she's like, "Well, can I just have a few bites of yours?" [laughs] And I'm like... And I'm kinda like, "What?
The point of this was like get more calories in me and now you're gonna make-- you know, you're gonna take it from me?" I'm like, "How about, can, why don't you get your own?"
[laughs] So she ordered, so she ordered her own and then I ate this whole Frosty. And, and then I think in the end I was like, "Yeah, I probably should've just shared with you 'cause now I'm like really full."
But, but we went to bed and the next day, like it had been a big training day that day, and I got up the next day and I actually had a, like a good run-in. I was like, "Yeah, I'm glad you made..."
Uh, I was basically like, "I'm glad you made me eat that Frosty." [laughs] So, and she didn't make me, but it was like at her suggestion. Um, so she keeps an eye on me.
Like even though I love to eat, like she'll still be like, "Maybe we should get some more in there." [laughs] I did a podcast with, uh, Dr.
Teddy Bross, who's a, a pretty good runner himself, but also a, a concierge doctor here in, in the Boulder area.
And he walked through some of the, the data around like 44% of women and 48% of men are under-- uh, runners are under-fueling. And so that's like half of the people listening to this.
And you're talking about the other end of the spectrum of like you're, you're going for the dessert, you're doing the thing, and you wake up and you feel awesome. And so it's like there's such a culture of
less is more sometimes, and we're, I think we're finally seeing the reversal of that.
And like my first experience with higher carb fueling and eating enough and doing this, like I would wake up and I wouldn't feel exhausted, and I would sleep well. Mm-hmm.
And all these things that just like make you feel like a fully functional human, um, are aided from having the fries, having the, the shake, having the, you know, eating all your fruits and vegetables.
But if you're just eating fruits and vegetables, that's not, you're not getting enough dense food to, uh, to power, power all these miles.
So it's, it's cool to see the, the reversal of, you know, everything needs to be perfect all the time to the ma- many people just need to eat more, and if you just eat more, you'll feel, you'll, you'll feel better. Yeah.
I mean, this is where we pull like Jess into th- into- [laughs] Right... this podcast. Like she knows all the science of like this stuff, um, as a diete- as a, as a dietician.
And, and I think we have to, we always have to be a little careful how we talk about food. Like it's just like the world is very gray. It's not black and white. It's- Right...
it's not necessarily that like it's always the more, the better or, uh, you know, 'cause you can go both directions, right? Right. Or like, oh, just like eat McDonald's all the time 'cause it's high calorie content.
No, like nutritional content still matters. Like- Sure... it's good to get healthy foods in there. Um, you know, it's hard to get all those calories on just salad. It doesn't mean don't eat salad.
But like make sure you're getting like your nutritional content and then you're also getting like your dense, like carbohydrate sources and things. Yeah, there's not like a one set thing.
It's just like make sure you're feeling right. A- and I think like in the past, like as like a high school and college athlete, it was kind of like you tended to get restrictive about things.
Like, "Oh, like, like, 'cause I don't wanna weigh like one pound more." You know? Like, and, and you're kinda splitting hairs, and in the process of splitting hairs, like you're maybe missing...
Like I just feel like it's more dangerous, like it's more dangerous to be missing something than to have a little too much of something. Totally. Like, like s- like if I were to ate a little bit- Totally...
too much McDonald's, I, I don't know, like I'm not
a dietician, but like if I eat a little bit too much McDonald's or a little bit too like unhealthy food- I, I just feel like that's still probably less dangerous than what-- eating, like, too little food. Right.
Um, so yeah, like, still good-- shoot for good nutrition, but just, like, make sure the volume of food is enough to support the training load and, and, like, what you're doing. [upbeat music] Quick heads up.
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So one of my first ultra experiences, uh, was doing the marathon relay-- Sorry, one of my first trail experiences was doing the marathon relay at the 2016 North Face 50, and I was finishing my 10K while you and Hayden were battling it out for, for the front of the, the 50-miler, and you both blew my doors off as I was running six miles and you were finishing your, your 50th mile.
And so many of us in the trail world have watched that video, and they-- we've watched that, um, that showdown take place. That was 10 years ago.
You know, are you thinking about the fact that that was 10 years ago, and now you both are at-- racing Western States com-coming up here in a couple of weeks and, and how impressive the, the, the durability is that you're both still competing at the highest level, um, 10 years, 10 years later.
Like, talk to me about what-- kinda how you're feeling heading into the race. Yeah, it's definitely something I'm grateful for, that I've been able to be here competing, you know, like this for, for this amount of time.
I'm certainly not-- I'm, like, by far not the oldest guy in the sport. Like, you know, there's so many guys, like, that have come before me that are either, like, the same age, but have just been doing it, like,
you know, they started 10 years before me. Like, you know, like Killian was... I feel like he was established, like- Yeah... superstar when I was, like, in college.
You know, and I was still, like, f-three to five years away from even entering the sport, and he was already, like, the man. [chuckles] You know, and we're about the same age.
Um, or guys like Bronco Billy or, um, or even, like, N.
Hunt Krupicka, who I know we don't see race a lot anymore, but is still, like, very active in the endurance world and, and we see him pop into an ultra every, you know, from time to time.
Um, like, there's just so many guys who do have, like, more, um, years in the sport than me. But, like, but yeah, I guess I have quite a few and, and to look back, it's like, it feels very good to be, like,
still here, uh, 10, 12 years later, whatever it is. I guess i-it also feels very good because in ways it feels like the sport has changed a lot. Sometimes I have to step back and be like,
"Has it changed that much or do we just hype it up and make it seem like it's changed that much?" Like, you know, I, I have to step back sometimes and like, "Are we that?"
Like, 'cause I think it's really easy for us to create the dialogue of like, "Oh, it's, it's younger, it's faster, it's more focused, it's more dialed." And then I have to kind of step back and be like, "But is it?"
Like, are the North Face 50 times from 20, uh, '16, '17, '18, or whatever, are they that much different from what we're running now, even though we're not running that race anymore? Um,
and you know, that's probably, like, you could go around and round on that. I think generally we are breaking course records. There's also some records that we probably still haven't broken yet.
Yeah, I mean, in some ways, I think the main thing that's happening now is, like, this field is getting deeper. Yeah. It used to be like, you showed up, like, that North Face 50 race, Hayden and I went out.
We ended up, like, mostly alone, the two of us, and we were away from the field. Hayden and I just raced Canyon's 100K. We went out. We were a pack of, I'd say like, 10 to 20 deep for like- Right... 20 miles.
And I was like-- and that I think is a good kind of perspective of like, I was in both those races, and I was running the second one, Canyon's 100K this year, being like, "This is kind of crazy."
Like, this wasn't what it used to be like. We weren't 20 deep for like 20 miles with like 10 guys that I'm l-like worried about all of them, you know? Like, or maybe more.
Um, it was like, no, a couple of us broke away, and we separated, and then we raced each other the rest of the, the day, basically. Um, and now it's, like, much deeper. I think we are getting faster to some degree.
UTMB times are coming down. Leadville times are coming down. Western States times are coming down. But they're also getting deeper.
Now it's what, like, the whole top 10, whole top five at, at Western States cracks 15, you know? Right. Or maybe more. Um, so- Or like the top 10 women- Yeah... are beating, the top five women ti- Yeah...
women's times are beating- Yeah, and the women-... the men's times from 10 years ago. Exactly. Exactly. So, and like, yeah, the women are definitely, like, making some huge stri- some big strides.
Um, so yeah, amidst all of that, seeing all of that, it feels really good to still be here and be like
Like going into cannons being like, I don't know if I still like have this in this day and age of the sport, in this style of racing.
And then to be able to do it and punch my ticket, because in the past it was kind of like, "Oh yeah, I'd like to run Western States," and I could pr- not to sound, like I don't want to sound cocky, but be like, "I could probably get a golden ticket."
And now this year I was like, "Well, I'm gonna try for a golden ticket, but there's no guarantee."
And also this, I should try this year because [chuckles] like this year and every year after, there's like no guarantee whatsoever that I will get one. So it was like, I'm gonna try, um,
and before the clock tick- ticks anymore. Um, and, uh, and if I get it, I'm pro- like I should probably run it [chuckles] because, um, there's no guarantee I'll get back in.
So, um, yeah, so it feels good to like still be here. So yeah, it'll be fun to go and have Hayden in that race at Western and, uh, along with all those other guys and, um, yeah, we'll s- we'll see what happens.
But, um, yeah, Hayden and I have had some like good days of like kind of bringing out the best in each other. So if that happens at Western, that would, that would be great.
Um, but yeah, h-ho- hopefully his training's going well and, and we can get out there and both, uh, enjoy some good miles on the course.
Do you think that the fact that these races are 10 20 deep, so deep into the race, is one of the components of why we're seeing such faster times, right?
Like you're a com- really competitive person, Hayden's a really competitive person, there are a lot of competitive people out there, and we used to see a lot of people just kind of running away with it, like you were talking about back in 2016.
And now, like, people are leading from the gun going up the escarpment, and they're, and they're, you know, gunning it at, at, at these golden ticket races right from the jump.
Like how much of the, the drop in times and the, the increase in competition is coming from the fact that these fields are so deep, and you can race each other right from- Yeah... right from the jump?
I mean, I think competition usually does yield faster times. I mean, I mean, that was like c- college, right? Like in a nutshell, it was like
you trained your butt off running intervals, and sometimes they'd feel pretty hard, and you'd be like, "How on earth am I ever gonna do this?" Like, you know, you'd be training for a, a 10K rather than like 10 by 1K
intervals at pace, and it still f- might feel pretty hard. And you're like, "How am I ever gonna string this together all in a row?" Like the workout is hard. But then it was always kind of like that magic of race day.
You get on the track, the, the spikes are on, the competition is there, the pack is there, and you kind of get sucked along for the first half of it being like, "Oh, it feels like a tempo run, even though I'm running the same thing I do in practice doing intervals."
And yeah, I think competition, it just, it, it tends to bring out that next level in people. I think in terms of it making us faster overall, like with course records and things, [sighs]
I think there's kind of like-- I think the big factor there is like,
it kind of depends on like the people that were racing them when there was less, when there was maybe a not so deep field and the people racing them now.
Because I think a lot of guys, they will go harder if there's people around them. If they're winning, it depends on the athlete. Like some athletes might kind of like,
they might not, like they might do enough to win but not go all out, and, and that's not really to knock people, it's just everybody kind of has a different philosophy and way they do that.
So I think if we had a lot of guys who are like able to win races without going all out, those guys are potentially now being pushed more to, to like dig a little deeper and run faster.
And I think that can result in faster times.
But if you had guys who were like racing at the front and they were, they were more racing the clock than their competition, then I don't know, maybe those guys, maybe their times won't be a ton faster because they were really good at pushing themselves solo.
Um, but yeah, but I think most people, they have trouble getting like that extra, that last 10% out of themselves, and competition is what brings that out. Um, and so yeah, I think, I think it do- it does help.
What is it about competition that you love so much? I listened to a podcast with, uh, Max King the other day, and he's, he was just saying like, "It's just fun to win." [both chuckling] You know?
I mean, it is, like it's fun. Yeah. Like that's why we do it, right?
To try to see who's the best, and it's fun to be the guy that's the best, and you get all the attention, and you get all the like praise and claps and, you know.
Like, not that that's like-- N-not that that's all that matters, but it is just, it is just nice. Like whether it's like arm wrestling or
egg toss at a family reunion or ra- you know, a big race at Western States, it's, it's, it's fun, it's fun to win. It's l- it's an ego boost. And yeah, I think some people, they're just not very competitive.
They're like, "I don't really care." Like, I maybe like enjoy doing the thing, but I don't feel a great drive to be the winner, you know? They just like enjoy,
I don't know, they just enjoy running or like, you know, the process. Um, but I think others of us are like, are like wicked competitive, and we're just like, yeah, we love the thing, but we
largely love like, like competing. Um, so yeah, and I, and I-- that's me. Like I grew up in team sports and stuff, and it was always like you were always trying to win and, um, yeah, it's just, it's just fun.
[chuckles] Talking about the team aspect of being on The North Face, which you've be- been on for nine, I think nine years now, how does, how does that feel like a team for you?
And, and do you feel a, a sense of pride when you're standing on the starting line and, and racing the people next to you, and some of them are your teammates? It's great being on a team.
Like, you got buddies to text, people to, like, check in and be like, "Hey, how's training going?" Or, you know, chat with when you have an injury or something you're dealing with.
And then, like, well, I mean, for The North Face specifically, we, we do-- we usually do a number of things throughout the year where all, uh, all, either all our athletes or at least some of our athletes get together.
So that's, like, really fun to just kind of, like, have team bonding and be able to, like, train or just hang out or eat food or whatever, you know.
Um, and, and, and, and North Face specifically, a lot-- there's a lot of crossover.
You know, you get to interact with, like, a lot of the best skiers in the world, the best climbers in the world, the best alpinists in the world, you know.
And you can pick brains and, and that little sort of, like, collaboration can lead to some cool stuff of, like, alpinists and runners kinda meshing together and sharing info and inspiring each other, maybe tackling projects together, um, or, like, climbers and runners crossing over or, or whatever.
Um, and so yeah, it's just pretty-- it's just neat to have that aspect and that dynamic. When it comes to run team specifically, I think our, our team does a good job of rooting each other on.
Um, we have a big team chat that we keep going. And yeah, it's nice to have, like-- it can be nice to have, like, teammates on the starting line. I mean, they're also competitors, you know?
So, like, there's a bit of, like, a competition factor there too of, like, you're still competing against each other, but you're also, like, you know, you're also from the same team, so it creates, like, some natural camaraderie, um, which is nice.
What role does curiosity play in your training and racing? Probably a lot. [chuckles] I train without a, like, a c- without a coach, so that gives me a lot of free rein to be curious and just try things.
Not knocking coaching. I think it can be really valuable. But I also, like, I appreciate, like, the flexibility that self-coaching brings and, like, specific to curiosity, I think it enables you to be very curious.
Like, um, of course, you could be curious alongside a coach and, you know, be like, "Hey, I was wondering about this," and, "What could we do to explore this?" and whatnot, you know.
But when you're solo, yeah, it's really easy to be just like, "Okay, what happens if I run mega big volume for, like, a month or two?" You know? Or like, "What happens if I do high quality, low, low volume?"
And those are very, like, basic examples, but like... Or, "What happens if I meld the two together?" Like, "What happens if I do three workouts a week?"
Or, "What happens if I do doubles or sing-" Like, you can just play with so many variables and just be curious to try to figure out what works for you.
And you can be-- like, you can essentially just, like, turn yourself into a lab rat, which can be tricky because you're trying to perform well, but if you can separate enough from the desire to perform well, it's almost like to be truly curious and truly lab ratty, you have to almost, like, not care about the outcome.
Which is, like, hard, right? 'Cause you don't wanna blow a race, but you also wanna figure out what might be possible. So it's, like, kinda like...
Like, I try not to-- Like, people get really cr- I feel like sometimes we, it feels like we're really critical about how we train, like, that there's a right way to train, uh, you know, and it's like, "Oh," and then we judge each other like, "Oh, he's an idiot.
He shouldn't be doing, like, three threshold workouts a week." Or like, "Oh, he shouldn't be doing li- like, like this," or, "She shouldn't be running that many miles, like, or that many hours."
And I try not-- Like, it's easy to do that to people, but I try not to be too critical of people because, um, in that way. I mean, not that I am, am, like-- not that I don't get critical.
Like, I remember seeing something [chuckles] the other week or a few months ago or so and talking to a buddy about it. I was like, "Man, I was looking at this thing th- you know, someone was doing."
I was like, "Man, it was just, like, so much. Like, I don't know." But I, like, will probably, like, say, I'll be like, "But who knows? Like, maybe it'll work."
Like, I, I, I, I'm skeptical, [chuckles] but I also, like, don't wanna knock it too much. So, like, because I think s- where we learn,
to some degree, not all of our learning, but I like to think that s-some of our learning comes on the fringes.
It comes from the people playing and being curious and doing the things that everyone else is like, "Well, that's ridiculous," or, "That's gonna burn you out," or, "That's, that's just gonna be, like--
that's not gonna work." And it's like, yeah, maybe, like, 80% of the time it's not gonna work, or 90%, or 95% of the time it's not gonna work.
But, like, once in a while, someone's probably gonna find something that is like, "Oh, wait a minute. We didn't expect it, but that actually worked."
Or it didn't quite work, but there was a piece of it that was, like, very valuable, and we can now take that piece and apply it. So I appreciate people, like, being curious and playing around on the fringes.
And I, I would say I, yeah, I, I feel like I'm a curious person myself, and I take some risks. Um, and I kind of enjoy doing that, but there's also this drive to, like, have a good race. So, like, [chuckles]
it, it can be a little, it can be a little hard. There's a little give and take there. What have you learned fro- uh, learned about yourself from being curious?
Well, I probably learned that, and maybe I knew this, but, like, you can end up doing too much.
I have a buddy in Oregon who's a, a former pro cyclist, and I'll talk about, like, yeah, like, as you get farther in your career, it'd be kind of fun to just play around with stuff and, like, be like, "Okay, I'm gonna try to figure out how to be the fastest I can be with the least amount of training."
You know, like that would be a fun game to play. But you could go like, you know, on that end, you could do too little and be like, "Yeah, I didn't race very well," you know?
And on the other end, you could be like, "I'm gonna find out, like, what the most..." So I guess, like,
obviously, I've probably shown or hinted to myself that, like, yeah, you can go too far on the ends, and you can do too much, or you can, like, do not enough.
Maybe I've learned that, like, sometimes you can, like, surprise yourself, and you can, like, take some pretty crummy situations and get something, like,
pretty good out of it that you-- Like, I had a knee-- or I have a knee issue, um, 'cause it's just kind of like an issue that isn't really gonna completely fix itself with current, like, medical technology.
Um, and I mean, I was, like, in offices with doctors where they're just kind of like, you know, they're just kind of giving you the, like, "Yeah, we don't really fix this."
Like, and you run a lot, like, it isn't really good for running. [chuckles] Like, it's kinda up to you of, like, how much pain you can take, you know?
Um, and then getting in, like, the camp of, like, well, with doctors who are like, "Oh, well, we can do this," and, like, PTs like, "Oh, you can strengthen this, and you can work on this."
And then, like, being curious enough or maybe stubborn enough to wanna keep running to pursue those paths of like, okay, I'm gonna work on my mobility, and I'm gonna work on my strength and my stability, and finding that, like, oh, wow, this thing that I thought was gonna be, like, maybe a death sentence to my career
actually doesn't have to be. I don't know if I really credit that more to curiosity or stubbornness or just, like, desire to keep going.
Maybe more stubbornness and desire to keep going, but there is, like, there is probably a bit of a curious element in there of, like, hmm, like, I wonder if this doctor could be right or, like, hmm, I wonder what happens if, like,
the exercise that currently seems to hurt, if I do it enough, maybe I, like, get the mobility back, get the strength, and then, like, eventually it, like, actually does better.
Um, and so yeah, I feel like that's kind of been what I've been doing over, like, the past year.
With the injuries and surgeries you've had, uh, does the return to Canyons and the successful race you had there and, and now the, the lining up at Western States, like, is it, is it that much sweeter because you've, you've had the valleys along the way?
Yeah, in ways. In ways, 'cause, like, I had a moment where, like, I was a fearful-- Now, now fear is, like, the tough thing, right? 'Cause it, it, it, it's sort of an alarmist, you know.
It's like, "Ah, no, we can't do this." Um, it can blow things out of proportion. Um, yeah, 'cause I had a moment where I was like, "Shoot, is it, like, the e-- like, is this the end?" Like, [chuckles]
"Can I do this sport anymore?" Um, so yeah, in a, in a sense it does. Like, it does feel sweeter and, like, and just, like, very grateful. Just like, okay, like,
I was afraid this was disappearing, so I'm now, like, very grateful that it's continuing. Um, and it-- and like I said, like, it's not like I'm in the clear, so every race that, like, I manage to, like, train for
and every race I manage to, like, finish, uh, and especially any race I manage to have a good race, it's like,
okay, like, none of those things were guaranteed, and so, like, I'm really grateful that they, that they were able to occur. Um,
so, so yeah, there definitely is, like, a sense of, like, gratitude and sort of, like, meaningfulness. More on the mental side, you appear to be very mentally tough, uh, in races in particular.
Where does that tenacity and, and strength come from with your ability to just suffer seemingly more than, more than most?
I mean, I think partly there's just, like, a great desire to, like, achieve what I wanna achieve, like, to win the race or to qualify for the next race or, um, to beat that person. I think, I think it helps that, like,
I've had moments of success. I know what it feels like to, like, win a big race. Um, and that's, like, like, I will admit, it's, like, that's, like, a pretty, like, addictive thing.
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It helps the show when you use that code. How do you push through that desire, right?
Let's say you're at the 50K at Robinson Flat, and you're like, "Oh, I feel flat, and I don't feel great," and you have 70 miles left to go.
How do you, how do you contextualize that, and how do you push through a low point? I had a lo- low point at Canyons, like, shortly after Forest Hill-- like, basically after Forest Hill, I just started feeling, like,
not so good. And, like, Hayden caught me, and he looked great, and I was like, "Ugh," like, "I don't know if I can run with this guy." Um, and it was really tempting to just kinda, like, let that one go.
I-- or not necessarily let it go, but just sort of, like, you know, let, let the foot off the gas. Um- But like,
it was a huge help to have Hayden come up on me, 'cause I was like, "Man, I don't even know if I can run with this guy. He looks so good, and I feel not good." And then I was just like, "Well, I'm just gonna do it."
Like, you just have to do it. So I was like, "I'm just gonna, like, run with him." And I did, and what I found was, like, eventually I was like, "Oh, wait.
Okay, now I've hit a little groove, and, like, now I don't feel as bad." And like, sometimes actually running faster is almost, like, feels better than running slower. Um, so yeah. I,
I think I wasn't necessarily thinking it in the moment, but I think what maybe helps is to remember that, like, this doesn't necessarily, like, last.
Like, just 'cause I feel bad now doesn't mean I'm gonna feel bad for the next 25 miles. So you can kind of harness that a bit and be like, "Hey, I just gotta, like, push through this bad patch and get to the good patch."
Um, and, like, this can turn around, and I can do things to help it. Like, I can drink, and I can eat, and I can, you know, do things to actually make it better, so.
But I think there's just a, also, like, there's, like, a huge mental thing, and that's something I feel like I've kind of been paying attention to in training.
Like, I'll be out training, and I'll be coming down-- Especially for me, it especially happens on descents. Like, I start to hurt, and I'm coming down a descent, and I'm like, "Man, my legs hurt." Like, "My knees hurt."
Like, things just hurt. And I'm like, "Wait," but like I've learned that I can kind of flip that switch mentally. I'll be like, "Yeah, but I can just, like, commit to, like, running smoother and faster here."
And I find that I actually even potentially feel better then. And I'm just like, this isn't really, like, a physical thing holding me back. It's a mental thing.
I've, like, started to feel bad, so now my brain feels bad, and so now my brain is shutting my body down. And I'll just try to flip that switch back off and be like, "No," like, "I'm physically capable."
Like, "I don't need to be breaking [chuckles] like I am. I can actually run this descent with authority." Um, and so I'll try to flip that switch in training. Um, and I think in racing it, it, it can be the same.
Like the pain, once the pain sets in, the brain, I feel like, tries to shut the body down and trying to figure out, like, "Okay, I'm responding because, like, there's pain, but it's not necessarily fatigue," you know?
And so then you kind of, like, flip that and be like, "Okay, well, let's just,
let's just, like, decide to kind of, like, ignore the pain, run with better form and rhythm, and we'll probably actually have less pain, and we'll actually feel better, and we'll run a lot faster."
[chuckles] Did it take a while to, to put that into practice and to figure out how to flip that switch? Uh, I mean, I feel like I'm still practicing it, practicing flipping that switch. Um, but to figure it out, [sighs]
I think it just sort of comes from experience, like, over the years. Um, I think one of the big ways I learned it was racing Andorra one year.
I was under the impression that I had, like, a good cushion, and I got to the last aid station. I looked behind me, and the aid station workers were like, "Yeah, the second place is right there."
And I was like, "No way," like, "You're joking." And he was like, he was, like, right there.
But then, like, the fear and the competitiveness set in, and I just took off, and I went from, like, basically hobbling to, like, running this, like, strong descent down this technical, steep section.
And I was like-- And that kind of-- But that was, like, a eye-opening moment for me. I was like, "Oh, wow," like,
"Look at Andorra, where I, like, felt so bad, but then I so quickly turned it around because I just, like, mentally chose to, and then the physical followed once I did that."
So yeah, I, I would say it's just something I've kind of, like, noticed over time through training and racing, like, over years of training and racing, and have maybe more recently been tapping into it and being like, "Okay, don't run this slow [chuckles]
because, like, you don't need to be." Um, and then, and then, like, taking it o- taking off. What does that unlock, if anything, in other parts of your life outside of running? I think just, like, any, any, like, moment
where, like, I don't know, like, life is full of hard work and tiring moments and, like, whether it's, like, a long cross-country road trip or
a long day of chores at the house or, you know, or, like, training hard and then going on to do something else.
You know, like, whether it's, I don't know, just, like, could be grocery shopping, could be cooking dinner, could be, you know, like, taking care of the other people in your life. Like,
just to sit down and be like-- Or, or just to be able to be like, "Yeah, I'm tired, and I mentally, like, don't wanna be here," but,
you know, that, that flip that I switch when I train and I run, like, I can do that here in this space and, and get this thing done. Um, so yeah. I think it can be super, super useful.
Um, still not necessarily easy, but yeah, it can definitely be applied to just, like, any busy, chaotic, hard, tiring life circumstance. [chuckles] Yeah, I think that's kind of the beauty of running, right?
We can figure out how to, how to get through the hard things, uh, in life by getting through the hard things in, in running, where we're choosing this discomfort.
Um, whereas in, in life, sometimes that discomfort is a little bit less optional. Yeah, and I mean, I think it's not just running. It's, it's sport in general. It's like, it could be soccer. It could be football.
It could be basketball. You know, it could be climbing, you know, skiing, mountaineering. Like, ultim- My, my wife played ultimate Frisbee at, like, a pretty high level.
Um, and she, she's told me about how before they would always say, like, the average point-- The average time to score a point in ultimate takes, like... I forget what she said. If it was, like, seven minutes.
That sounds way too long for me. Um, maybe it's, like, a minute or, like, 30 seconds or something.
And so, like, the team used to be like, "Okay, we only have-- like, we have to really focus and go super hard for, like," whatever it was, like, "45 seconds." Like, "That's really, like, all we need."
Um- You know, to like score the average point.
Um, and you know, so and I think that's like a similar mindset, like, you know, you're like, "Look, we just have to zone in, like right now and lock in for like the next bit and we can, we can do it." Love it.
What does success mean to you? I don't know. I mean, I think there's maybe different kinds of success. There can be success in just like, did you attain something that you were satisfied with?
You know, like that can be success. Like, you know, 'cause like y- you could wi- you could place 36th in a race and be like, "Hey, that was success." 'Cause like
to me, I was gonna be thrilled if I finished in the top 50. Um, and so you're satisfied with like anything in the top 50 and you get 36th and it's like you by no means won the race, but that can still be success.
And then there's like more objective success of like, um, or more like maybe societal objective s- success of like, well, success is winning.
Success is being the guy who finishes first, and so you can have that type of success. But then y- y- it, it's just sort of whatever you define, like, I guess kind of define it to be. Like,
I don't know if we-- I don't know if success, like the term success really fits into a box. We, we always try to put things in boxes, like, you know, and I just like, I'm,
I'm not- Not a box guy, despite being an engineer. No, no. [chuckles] No, like I think, I think I maybe grew up in a little bit more of a box culture, like or, and not necessarily because like,
I don't know if my parents really crafted a box culture. I think I maybe more grew up in a culture and a society, um, that sort of like utilized the box. Um, and so I felt like- It's clean, it's predictable, yeah...
so I like felt like I was like into boxes. Like, like 'cause that's almost easier. Like life is almost easier in a box mentality.
Like, okay, just tell me what's right and what's wrong, and like I'll just do the stuff that's right and then like I'll feel satisfied or like I'll feel like I'm good.
But that g- that only like takes you so far in life because then you get to a point where you're like, wait a second, like most of the time the boxes don't work, like because life is more gray and dynamic than that.
And so then you're kind of like, well, shoot, now I have to think on my own and I have to like figure this out without like a checklist.
And it's like, well yeah, that's kind of [chuckles] how life, like, like life works. So, um, yeah, so I think for me, like success doesn't, like the term of success doesn't necessarily fit in a box very well either.
It's just like it can look a lot of different ways and I guess ultimately it's kind of like, did you achieve like what you wanted or, or maybe even
sometimes you don't achieve what you want, but you still achieve something of value. Um, so, and that can be deemed success. But like I don't think we also, we don't also need to like,
it's okay to look at something and be like, "That was unsuccessful." Like we don't have to frame everything as like, "Well, I didn't win, but it was successful 'cause I try- tried hard."
Like if that's important to you, you can do that, but also if you're like, "Well, really I just wanted to win," I mean, you can say, "Yeah, that was unsuccessful and I'm not happy with it," and that's, that's okay too.
Love it. I have a couple quick hitter questions to wrap things up here today. I appreciate your, uh, your time chatting through all this. Yep.
Um, as it relates to Western States, are you hoping for a hot year or a cool year? [chuckles] Oh man. Uh, I'm a cool weather guy. Yeah.
Um, I am intrigued by the heat and like have enjoy-- my, the curiosi- the curious side of me has enjoyed taking on this sort of new project of like, you know, my past projects have more been like vert races, you know?
And it's like, oh, okay, that's a little, maybe a little in my wheelhouse. Western is like, oh man, it's intimidating. I think heat is like one of the most intimidating factors. Like it is that element that actually like
can kill you, you know? Like you can get heatstroke. Like, you know, you can like die from heat. Um, I mean, you can die from cold too, but you know, usually we carry extra gear. You can run harder, you can do things.
I guess I'm like a work hard guy, and you can kind of almost work hard to get out of being cold. But in heat, you have to like- [laughs] Yeah, can't... working hard just makes you h- hotter, basically.
And we're trying to run a race and beat each other and beat the clock, so it's kind of like very contradictory. Um, so yeah. I generally say I'm a cool weather guy. I run well in the cool. I like the cool.
Um, but I've enjoyed tackling the project of the heat aspect and, um, I guess I won't be mad if we wake up race morning and the forecast says it's gonna be 60 degrees the whole race.
[both laughing] Something tells me that won't be happening. I don't, I don't think that's gonna happen, but- Yeah... yeah, to answer your question, I won't be mad if the forecast is cool. Um- If it's only 95.
[chuckles] But, but I think I'll also be like missing out a little if it's cool because like- Yeah... I won't get to experience that new challenge of like, okay, how can I, how can I do in a tru- in a truly hot race?
And that's, oh, it's like scary and intimidating, but it's also exciting in the sense of that like it's a new challenge. Love it. Predictions or a dark horse expectation for the women's race.
I won't ask you about the men's race. [chuckles] Um, I mean, I might be a bit biased 'cause we're friends and former teammates and still, I guess, current teammates via, via working with Suunto.
Um, but I am very curious to see how Jen, Jen Lichter does. Um- I knew you were gonna say that, and I was thinking the same thing And I, I'm a bit, I'm a big Jen fan.
She's awesome person, awesome runner, like so much talent, like- Such good wheels, like true fast wheels, um, but also, like, so much strength. Um, and we have not seen her at this distance.
We haven't really s- I guess we've seen her maybe in the heat a bit at Transgrancanaria racing in the shorter distances. Um, but yeah, I think, uh, I r- I really wanna see...
Like, I think, I think Jen could win the race. Um, I think Jen could also have a big day of learning. Um, but I, I'll be rooting for Jen to win the race. [chuckles] Um, um, I'm very curious to see h- how, how she does.
I mean, she's one runner that, like, I don't follow every runner on Strava, but, like, Jen and I are friends and, like, I follow her, and some days I look at her training and I'm like, "Would I keep up?"
[laughs] Like, I'm like... No, honestly, some days I sit there and analyze runs that she does, and I'm like, "Do I go much faster than that?"
[laughs] Like, like, would I have gotten dropped on that run, or, like, that is maybe about my normal pace. [chuckles] So, um, and of course, it's hard to judge this from afar. You know, she's training in Missoula.
I'm training other places. You know, y- the comparison game is a, is a dangerous slope to follow. But no, super impressed, um, and curious to see how she does.
I had a chat with her on this podcast last year, and just such a big fan of hers and how she's going about the sport and the, the, her own personal journey that's gotten her to where, where she is today.
It's just really cool to see, and it's really easy to be a fan of hers. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Just, like, awesome story from, like, her childhood to now, and, like, if people aren't familiar with it, they should look into it. Um- I'll link it... incredible story. Yeah.
Um, and then just also, like, her personal- Like, if you ever hang out with Jen, she is just, like, uh- She won a beer mile last year. [chuckles] She, she, she's a, she's just a hoot. Like, she, she is, like...
I th- like, I think, you know, she's a bit of a weirdo in ways, but she, like, embraces who she is and, uh, it's just, it-- I think it's great when people are a bit weird and, like, it makes life fun, so. I agree.
Um, yeah. Find your weird. Um- Yeah... how thrilled would you be if The North Face 50 returned, and would you race it? Oh, man, I think I'd almost have to race it.
[laughs] Like, I, yeah, like, I think if they-- We, man, we wanted that race to stay, um, when it got axed, and,
uh, man, it's like, it's, it's still, it's weird that, like, that's still the race people bring up, and people talk about that race and, like, that was, like, the race of the... I, I, I might've used to call it that.
It was like the race of the dead. It was, like, the last big race- [laughs]... of the season after we had all obliterated ourselves- All the banged up athletes. [chuckles]...
like, like, all spring and all summer, and you, you just, you just cart it, like, you did one more training block- [laughs]...
carted the, the last bits of your fitness and health, you know, uh, to North Face 50 and just threw down.
And if you could write your season, if you could manage your season right and be the guy that showed up to that race healthy and, like, not too tired, like, magical things could happen.
Um, but, like, it was, it, it, yeah, it was just, it was just so fun. It was, like, the last hurrah of the year, um, at least in, in, in North, in, like, North America.
Um, and yeah, I, I think if they brought it back, I would almost have to run it. It was such a cool race, such fun trails, such, like, yeah, like, that, the running community there in,
like, the Mill Valley area is such a good vibe. Um, yeah, it would be amazing if they could bring it back, but, um, yeah, we'll see. [chuckles] What, uh, what shoe are you looking forward to racing in? Um, at, at States?
Yeah. Yeah, I will probab- I will most likely race in, um, the North Face Pro, VECTIV Pro 4. It's the prototype of the next Pro 4 that will be coming out in the future.
We're currently on the Pro 3, but, uh, I'm a sample size and do a lot of, uh, test, wear testing for them, and so I raced Canyons in the Pro 4, and it worked great.
Um, so there's a really good chance I will race in that, um, for Western. I think it's probably even better suited to Western than it was to Canyons. Um, uh, on deck, I will have a Ultima 500, um- I love that shoe...
which I act- Yeah, it, so comfortable, so great. Actually, I just took it to Moab, and I was like, "This is, like, the perfect- Yes... Moab shoe." Yeah.
Because it's grippy on the rocks, and there's so much stinking hard, slick rock in there, and the Ultima is just, like, so flexible and cushioned. I was like, "This is, like, the-- such a great Moab shoe."
Um, even though it's, like, bigger, but it's just, like, you're just comfortable in it. Um, so I actually, some days I'm like, "Should I wear that at Western?" Because it is just so comfortable and such a good, like,
just, like, feels good. Like, it just feels good.
Um, so I, but I'll probably have that on deck, and, and I'll probably have the Pro 4 on, and then I'll probably keep an Endurus 4 on deck as well 'cause that's just, like, a really solid, like,
that shoe can work for pretty much anything. Um, but, but yeah, the, but the Pro 4 worked great at Canyon, so I think I should probably, like, roll with that, and, and that's been feeling good in training. Awesome.
Zach, appreciate the chat, and, uh, for those who are, are spectating in person, what, what would you love people to shout at you as you run by? [chuckles] Go Birds. That's the only thing they have to shout.
[laughs] Go Birds. Uh, I didn't grow up in Philly, but I grew up 90, like, 90 minutes outside. Yeah. And I l- like, am infatuated with Philadelphia and Philadelphia sports culture.
Um, so in Philadelphia, Go Birds, like, for people who don't know, it's, like, what we say for, to cheer for the Eagles, but it's so much more than that. Like, Go Birds is, like, our universal, like, "Hello.
How you doing? Goodbye. I love you." Like, Go Birds, like, like, the team better win this weekend. [chuckles] Like- [laughs] But it just works for, like, everything. It's just, like, a universal greeting.
So if you yell Go Birds at me at, uh, at Western States 100, I will be, like, very jazzed. [chuckles] As a Pats fan, I may have to edit that out, but, uh- [laughs]...
maybe I'll just, uh, maybe I'll leave it in, but- Yeah. [chuckles] Zach, appreciate the chat, and, uh- Yeah... we'll see you out there.
Well, we, well, we did, like, you have a bird of ours now, so, um- Yeah, true, true... ho-ho-hopefully he serves you well. [chuckles] Yeah, enjoy the draft pick. [chuckles] Yeah. [chuckles] So yeah, yeah.
I think w- I think we're pumped on that, but, you know, I don't know. You always try to be pumped on something, so. [chuckles] Yeah. Cool. Zach, appreciate it.
So- And, uh, enjoy these next few weeks, and, uh, ha-have a, have a day out there. Okay, I'll try. Thanks for having me. Yeah. That's it for today's episode. Like many long runs with friends, it's sad when it has to end.
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This podcast was produced by Emma Benner of Sandy Boy Productions with musical composition by Brian Walters of Single Track Sound. Thank you for your support, and we'll see you out there. [outro music]