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Hey, everyone. Welcome to the Bay State Golf Podcast.

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Before we get to Burke and me talking about the Mass Am Winchester Country Club players to watch, places to go watch the golf during next week's Mass Am, just a quick apology for my audio on this side.

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My microphone did not connect, and so it was kind of like a, just using my either h- AirPods or my computer microphone. Burke sounds fantastic. He says better things than I do anyways.

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But just a quick apology for that before we get into the podcast. Thanks as always for listening. Please subscribe to this, uh, podcast channel, um, and also make sure to check out baystategolf.beehive.com.

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Beehive is B-E-E-H-I-I-V. I'll put a link in the show notes, too. I'm just putting together a bunch of stuff about the Mass Am, and if you're interested in it, that's the place all of it is going to live.

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Got a flyover of Winchester. I've got some interviews with Jim Salinetti. I've got some player preview stuff. So if you're looking for Mass Am stuff, that's a good place to go, baystategolf.beehive.com.

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And without any further ado, here is Burke with me talking about the 2026 Massachusetts Amateur Championship. [upbeat music] Welcome to the Bay State Golf Podcast. I'm Sean Mealy.

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We've got, uh, a Massachusetts major. Is that what we can call this, Berkey? We got the Mass Am coming up July 6th to July 10th.

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So I had you hop on, and we're gonna talk about a tournament that you have played in, a tournament I have not played in, and, uh, Winchester Country Club. Berkey, how you doing? I'm doing great.

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Um, it is the Massachusetts major for amateur golfers. Um, at one point, probably even all the professional golfers. It's, uh, the best tournament that the MGA runs. It's the cream of the cream.

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Uh, it's, it's the best, and what every, every golfer should strive to play in. Um, I've, you know, got very lucky to play in it once. Um, probably never again. Will die, will die trying. But yeah, no, it, it's,

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it's the best. And the... It's weird. I-- When you first asked me, I was like, "Wait, is the, am I early on the British Open?" 'Cause we only talk during majors and, and Ryder Cups. But no, like, this is, this is good.

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So we'll chop it up for someams. Hopefully won't offend anybody too much and, um, yeah. [chuckles] Yeah, I'm gonna be on the, I'm gonna be there, so let's, let's try not to make any enemies, um, this week.

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Can you- Yeah, you're pretty good at making enemies, so. [laughs] Can you give, can, can you give, uh, can you give... I-- So I caddied for you on the Tuesday of the, uh, 2024, '23. '23.

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I think it was the Wed- Was that three years ago? I think it was the Wednesday. Yeah. You were the second round. Second round. 'Cause the, 'cause you get... Okay, whatever.

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So I caddied for you in the second round, um, at Essex in '23, which is crazy. That was already three years ago. Give us your... Can you just, like, give us your, um, experience playing in it?

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Like, we, you know, or qualifying for it, just what it meant to you. We've both been chasing this forever. Yeah. We've probably, we've probably tried to qualify a combined 40 times. [laughs] We're one for 40, Berkey.

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It's not good. Probably even more than that. I've probably been- Maybe more... trying to qualify since I was 14 or 15 years old. Um- Yeah... had some close calls back when there were playoffs, just

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qualifiers totally in your head. Like, it, it just, you know, puking over yourself. I was the, you know, the king of starting, like, bogey, par, double. Um, but yeah, no. So I finally got through.

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I don't, don't need to go through it in detail, but it was, it was honestly unbelievable. I just, like, ha- had, like, the round of my life was qualifying for that, that tournament.

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And it, and it was actually, like, relatively stress-free. Don't ever, um, you know, under-club the value of a caddie. Had buddy Brett Krikorian on the bag, and he kept me very, like, calm the entire time.

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Um, and then getting there was, it was amazing. It was, it was honest- legitimately, um, you know, professional... Not a professional, like a, a personal golf dream come true. Um, and you feel it.

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Like, it's a huge event. The fact that it was at, at Essex was amazing. Um, you know, you're kinda hanging around there. I had one of the first tee times out that day. It was a very weird start to the day.

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This isn't, like, a retrospect on the Essex, the 2023 Mass Am, but, like, it was very foggy. And if you know Essex at all, there's, like, literally 100 people on the practice putting green. Yeah.

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And so, and I, I think I was the second or third group off. Um, happened to hit it down the middle, which was great. Um, and then, you know, went on to, like, you know, come in like, you know, close to last. [laughs] But

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s- still an ama- like, you know, I've got the poster. Um, just, just amazing. So, you know, a, a lot of these people go in, are gonna go into this week, like, trying to win. I certainly wasn't in that mindset.

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I was, you know, had this ridiculous thing about if I played my best golf, I could make the cut. Um, probably was a little delusional, but, like, it, it's still, like, an amazing thing.

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Like, as a, as a mid-am qualifying for the first time, which I'm sure there are folks that have done that, it, it is, like, it's, it's top of the top, and they make you feel good about it, and it's, it's really cool.

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Yeah. And it, like, the tournament has an incredible amount of history. And just kinda getting ready for this podcast and getting ready for next week, looking through...

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You know, we've got, like, Francis Ouimet won this tournament a bunch of times, and won it at Winchester, which is the host this year. Um, Winchester is hosting its eighth Mass Am in its history, uh, and won...

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Of course, it, like, hosted it a lot, and then 1986, 2002, and this year are the last three. Your boy and buddy, Rob Oppenheim, uh, won it in 2002 at Winchester. I was there.

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I heard, I heard he just shot a 62 at Winchester today. We're recording this on June 30th. Uh, broke the course record, um, out at a 54-year-old course record.

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Uh, so Rob can still ball, which everyone knows if you watch Korn Ferry or follow Korn Ferry.

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So that's kind of a cool little, uh, not full circle, but you know, 24 years later after winning a Mass Am, he goes out there and breaks the course record.

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It was honestly one of the first events, um, so I was a high school junior or going in, going into my junior year when that, um, you were going into your senior year, uh, when we went to that event, and there was a lot of Indian- Going into s- I was graduating.

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You were going into your senior year. Yes. Oh, yeah, yeah. I grad- We, I was, I'm a '02 high schooler. Yeah.

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So g- I was going into my senior year, and so, you know, obviously we were obsessed with golf, but I went there and watched Robbie play, and there's, I don't know, close to 100 Indian Ridge members there watching him play.

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He's playing Brian Higgins, who at the time was this, like, returning pro. Um, and you, you walk, I mean, I think we walk... I didn't walk all 36, but close. Call it 27.

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Um, and then he makes this 50-footer on the last hole to beat Brian Higgins. And Brian, who's an awesome guy, I, I will never forget this.

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Robbie, it was, the pin was probably, like, middle front right, and Robbie was, like, back center. Um, and Brian had, like, stormed back on him, if I remember correctly.

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And Brian just stood there and started clapping for him on the green, and it was, like, one of those really cool golfing moments where you watch and I'm like, "This is pretty cool." Like, everyone's clapping for Robbie.

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Like, Brian probably just got his, like, heart, or did get his heart ripped out. Um, and so that, like, sort of, kind of made maybe appreciate the game at a different level. Yeah. Yeah.

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Um, another kind of little cool bit of history here. The head pro at Winchester right now is Jim Salinetti, who won this tournament three times. Um, and- So hard... he won it in '97, '99, and 2000.

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Him and James Driscoll won five years kind of, like, together. Driscoll won two, and he won three. And I mean, Salinetti, I, I just, I think he even...

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I had him look at the list of former winners to ask if he thinks that any of these guys have been pros at a host club. I think he's the only Mass Am winner to then host the tournament, um, as the head pro.

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I, I'm not 100% sure, but asking around, I think, I think that's true. And- I mean, it's, it's not a road that a lot of people travel, right? No, not at all. Like, even, even becoming a club pro.

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So to do those two things would seem like a, you know... He, he's basically the- In Massachusetts. Yeah. Like, the whole thing.

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And then at a course that could host and the whole, like, all the, all the paths you have to take. He was also, like, just to put a little bit of Salinetti- He won at Vesper, didn't he? Did he win at Vesper?

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Um, I don't know where he won specifically. I got the list of former winners here. He won at Weston in '97, Katancit Club in '99, and Worcester in 2000. That's a heck of a trio [chuckles] right there. That's not too bad.

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That is- And then Driscoll won in 90. Driscoll won in '96 at Myopia and '98 at Belmont. Mm. And then the two of them went to Baltusrol, um, in 2000, and Driscoll goes to the final of the US Am.

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Salinetti was the medalist that year and the number one seed in match play. That's amazing. And then here's a little, little nugget I found.

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He reached the round of 16 and lost to a fellow named David Egger, who was an older guy. He was, like, a s- pro in the '70s.

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David Egger might be most famous as the guy who called in Tiger's bad drop at the Masters [chuckles] in 2013. That's the guy. The, so Salinetti- That's amazing... lost to him in, in 2000. He turned pro.

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He went back to amate- amateur. Like, Egger was a very good amateur player, and then he actually turned pro again to be a senior pro.

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And you know, he's the guy who called in that famous Tiger drop, which we did a little, that came up in our ma- ma- our Majors podcast. So I thought that was a funny little bit of, of information there.

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Um, in the field, so there's, this is, like I said, this is the, this is the eighth year that the Mass Am has been held at Winchester. We've got, what, Fred Swemett has won there. Um, Frank Quinn won in '86.

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Rob Oppenheim won in 2002. Um, Dave Whiteside, Tom Mahan, Bruce Douglas, and Frederick Wright all won as well. Frederick Wright I got some info on later. It's kind of, he's a, a very interesting character.

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But, like, Quinn and Oppenheim as the last two winners is, um, is another pretty solid stretch. And then we got six former champions in this field this week as well. Steve Tassio won in ni- '81 and '85.

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The guy is- And he qualified, right? And I think he qua- [chuckles] I think he qualified. His exemptions have run out. He won in '85. Um, I think he qualified. He's, he's unbelievable. Ben Spitz was the '06 champion.

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Parziale, 2017. Uh, Pat F- uh, Pat Frodo won in 2018, Connor Willett in '22, and Matthew Newmack in '24. So those are the former champs in the field. Um, maybe most notably, Ryan Downes is not playing, um, this year.

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Just kind of, I think his, his schedule is busy. I don't know if he just likes maybe the idea of finishing at Great Horse, winning at his home course.

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Um, he's doing a lot of traveling, playing a bunch of elite amateur series stuff, and, uh, I think that's kind of, like, the natural progression of some of these, like, super talented,

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um, high-level kids who have a few years of college under their belt. So he might be on the bag for someone this week, though. He, he told me, but we'll see.

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We got six Winchester members in the field, Berky, and three of them have the last name of Monahan.

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[chuckles] We got Joey, Brendan, and Aidan Monahan, and then Jake Pier, Owen Egan- I didn't know there were any Monahans at Winchester... Joel Crossguy, and John Savage Yeah. You didn't know that?

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I didn't know Monahan was a Winchester- Yeah... Chester thing. Like, the... Yeah, Jay Monahan. I'm joking. Um, that- They're all- That, that family. [chuckles] They're, they're all Winchester, okay.

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I was thinking there's no way you don't know this. So question for you, and I was gonna get to this- Yes... later. Looking at tee times, did you know that they- Mm-hmm... paired the three Monahans together?

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I did know that. And how do you feel about that? I did know that. I wonder how, I wonder how- Bliss stuff... I wonder how they feel about that. Um, I don't know. I don't know if they asked for it.

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I don't know if it's, um- I feel bad for the, the tee times- If Mass, Mass Golf is-... behind them and in front of them, 'cause there's gonna be 300 people out there watching them. There, there might be.

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Might be a big, might be a Tiger effect. Could be a, could be a big issue out at Winchester this week. [chuckles] Um, I don't know if they asked to be paired together.

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It's a, it's a father, son, and nephew, I believe, right, between those three. Um, so yeah, I think it's kind of, kinda cool that the three of them are in there and they've got six, six overall players.

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It's the most represented club in, uh, in the tournament. If that was you- Do you- If that was you as the son or the nephew or even the father... Uh, and I don't, I don't know the answer to this.

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Like, do you think that optimizes their playing? Me personally, I think if you had me play with my brother or my dad, it would not optimize, it would not optimize me playing, playing my best golf. I don't think.

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Like, maybe you're distracted a little bit from your own game, but, um, I, I'd be interested, I'd be interested to know if that was, like, them, the Mass Golf being cheeky or if they asked them like, "Hey, we wanna do this.

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We, are you guys okay with it?" 'Cause it's obviously super cool. My guess is it's never been done before. So, like, to make history in that respect is incredible. Um, but I just wonder from a competitive standpoint.

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And maybe they're just so comfortable with each other on that golf course that they're just gonna be throwing darts and, you know, members will be kicking- Yeah, maybe they, maybe they-...

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kicking balls into the fairways and, uh. [laughs] I don't mean that. They all come in in the top three. I got, I gotta be careful with what I say in this thing 'cause th- they, this, this is Massachusetts.

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That was a joke. I know there's, there's no Winchester members who would ever do that. Never. Never. No, no. Not at all. Let's, let's... So I think those three guys, obviously, and these six have some course knowledge.

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Let's, let's talk a little bit about the golf course, um, so we don't get ourselves in trouble with some of the players in the field.

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Um, it's, you know, Donald Ross, it's an, it's an awesome test, and some people think it's, you know, maybe 17 good holes and, and an opening hole. Um,

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and just, I, I think the stroke play to match play thing before we hit record, you had said there are some, like, some moments, inflection points on the golf course.

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What, uh, what do you see as the, as those moments or, like, the, the flow of the round, um, maybe impacting stroke play or match play? So, uh, I, I mean, I get...

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tho- those are kind of different questions, so I'll take it a little bit more neutral. I think one, two is, like, straight out the gate inflection point.

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You have one, which depending where they put the tee, I'm sure for match play it'll be moved up. Stroke play, it's probably gonna be a little bit further back.

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But for those who don't know, one is, like, a hard dogleg right, sort of uphill. Um, depending on the wind and where the tee is, you, you can get very close to this green. Um, but you can also lay back and...

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You know, I, I've played the course a decent amount. Like, for me, it's a scary shot laying back, 'cause if you miss the green, it's, it's, like, really hard.

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Um, and then, then two to, to me is actually, like, a pretty easy and gettable par five if you hit it, like, a decent distance and, like, a, to, like, it's kind of a nice...

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They're both, I think you wanna shape it a little bit left to right on both of them or maybe a lot left to right on the first one. But, um, like, how you start on those holes and, like, I actually...

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So if it were me, I would love to start on 10 the first day because you'd get those holes already warmed up, and it would be really ni- it'd be really nice to, like, hit those back-to-back holes. No waiting. Yeah.

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Um, whereas, like, first hole jitters, I mean, I, I don't know, I just have a ton of first hole jitters. So, like, you just, you're getting out of the gate, it might be a little bit tougher.

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Whereas I love 10 as a starting hole because it's such a hard par four that, like, if you make bogey there, you're like, "Okay, whatever." Like, I mean, half the field's gonna make bogey on that hole. And I- And, and,

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and you got two par fives- And you, and then you got the-... on the first four holes there. And, and, like- 11's a beast, but...

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I, I, I honestly think that a tough par four for me is an ideal start because you're just so okay with making a five, and then you can just kind of, like, rejigger the engines and, and go.

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Um, whereas, like, one, two, you should be, like, those holes independent of being a st- out of the starting block. And again, this is different from match play than stroke play, right?

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Like, match play you still, you're like, "You're gonna go anyway." But, like, for stroke play, um, I think that those holes out of the starting block, if you're morning early off one, two,

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that, that's probably not ideal. I'd rather be m- morning 10, afternoon one, two. Like, that would be- Yeah... my ideal. The ideal. It's a little bit like Bra- uh, Brae Burn had the same thing on in '21.

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I remember I was up there on the first tee watching guys, and you get, you got a bunch of guys who just got up and hit, like, a long iron off that tee and just like, "Let's get going."

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And you had some guys who hit driver trying to get it either over the creek or just anywhere up near the creek or o- and, and up by the green. So it's, it, it is...

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The next hole at Brae Burn's different, but I think if, if you're walking off two and you've got, and you've got eight on your card, you're like, "All right, well, now we're off and we're, and we're running."

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Yeah, you're pretty happy. But I think if you're There's like a very not hard scenario where you can be walking off with seven, even six. Like, like it's- Yeah. Um, if you're wa- Yeah.

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And if you're walk- It's- If you're walking- You probably will. And if you're walking off with fi- if you're wa- sorry, if you're walking off with, um, nine or even 10, you're like, "This is- Yeah...

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in a, we're in a bad spot here." Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so that's the first inflection point. Any other, any other moments for you on that golf course? So match play, I love the fifth hole.

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I, I think the fifth hole will be really cool. Um, you can, you can drive it. Um,

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because of where it is in the round, um, you know, maybe you'll see guys who are playing the, like that hole as their back nine on the second day try to drive it more. But I think it's a super cool, super cool hole.

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Um, excuse me. And so, in fact, those are, those are some of the ones that I'd be, I'd be looking at. Um, and then on the b- back, like I think 18 is up there with as, as good of a finishing hole as there is

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in the state of Massachusetts. Agree. Um, there are some other good holes back there. There's, there's a little bit im- from my opinion, there's a little bit more goofiness to the back nine than there is, um,

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to the front. Like, what's, what's the par five that has the target, like the, the split fairway?

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Like I, I, I don't love split fairways, but, um, I, I, to me, 18 is like as good of a, an arena coming down the stretch as you can get.

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And, you know, if you hit a really good drive and a really good second shot, you can make a birdie. But man, par is a, a really good score on that hole. I love just the, the cadence of the back nine is,

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is, um, g- will be in, will be good for match play or not good, but worth following because like you said, you got a par four to start on 10 and then a par three and then two par fives in 12 and 13.

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And 13's probably like the, the funkiest hole on the golf course. Yeah. Um, and then 14's like a short par four. Or sorry, short par three. Par, yeah.

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It's, it's, it's, I think it's gotta be- And then it's like par four, par four, par four, par four. Yeah. Four- 14 to me is, is probably one of the more bland holes on, on the golf course. Um, but- But it's the last one.

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For some people it's gonna be like...

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It's, it's maybe for guys who, if you're behind and you're looking at four par fours coming, coming down the stretch, like maybe a two is what you need on 14, 'cause someone can just kinda protect the lead on those fours.

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But the, the, the good thing is like on those par f- fours that come down the stretch, if you wanna take on the risk, like you can push it down there and you can have a shorter club in.

116
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Now, there's a lot of risk to them, but they're, they're very, very good par fours. Um- Yes... in that you do, you can still have an opportunity, you can still have a wedge, again, depending on the wind on certain holes.

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Um, so I, I don't know. I, the, the finish is like you, you d- there, there are no birdie holes on the finish, but like you can make birdie on those holes, if it ma- if that makes sense. Yeah.

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Maybe- The, the other- 18's a tough one, but. Yeah. The other part for, for me that I think, uh, just the, the, the way the golf course flows, you don't get a par three till the sixth, but then you get a par three,

119
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six, nine, 11, 14. So that's a window where maybe, you know, the, the guys who don't hit it as far, maybe out, out accepting 11, which is gonna be like, could be 250 on some days.

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But the guy, like the good iron players could make hay in that middle chunk of the round because those par threes come thick and fast in that stretch from six to 14. Um, so that's another little...

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And there's two par fives [chuckles] in there. It's a very like funny little stretch of golf from six to, to 14 that feels different than one through five and 15 through 18. It's like there's- Totally...

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the, the nines are almost set in a, in a funny order where it's like one, two, three, four, five and the, and the last four and then that middle nine will be an interesting watch.

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And six, nine and 11 as par threes, they're like, yes, a good, uh, iron player might be able to take advantage of them. But if you miss those in the wrong place, like you're getting expelled like all over- Yeah.

124
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Like, like all over the place in, in, in the, in the wrong spot. I mean, nine's just like, just tough if you miss the green. You shouldn't miss the green. Um, but, but especially six.

125
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But you can even hit that green in the wrong spot. Right. If the pins are, you know, like- But, but six- That's the other thing about Winchester.

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I, I mean, 6 and 11 you could be like 60 yards away from the green if you hit, you know, something that, that's moving in the wrong direction. Yeah.

127
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Do you have a favorite hole or some just general favorite holes that you like out there? Um, I, I mean, I, I think 18 honestly is probably my favorite hole.

128
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I think it's just such a, a, a perfect golf hole in that it, it, it's, there's no tricks to it. Um, I think it's, I think it's an amazing golf hole. Um,

129
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I, I actually, I, I think that, um, like three and four is a little bit of an underrate. I, I love, uh, I, I don't think one is the best golf hole, but like I do think the, the start of that golf course is pretty cool.

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Like three and four, um, are really good. So I don't know. I haven't really thought about like my, my favorite hole out there. I, I, I f- I mean, five is again another one that just gives you so many options.

131
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If you're, you know, you step on the fifth tee two over and you're pissed, you're like, "All right, I'm gonna whip driver here and try to [chuckles] put, put it on the green." Um, so I, I don't know.

132
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It's just a collection of really good golf holes. What's your favorite hole? Yeah. It's, I think four is very good, uh, just as far as like a test and having to hit two very good shots uphill.

133
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That green, that green is one of those ones that You stand on And if you've-- I've played there, I think I played W-Winchester like three times, and

134
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you can hit putts on that green that look flat, and they are certainly not a flat putt. Like, the two tiers are so subtle. I also, I don't know why, I really like 6.

135
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I find it, like, a super uncomfortable [chuckles] par 3, but I don't know if it's just getting to the point, getting to your first par 3, like, kind of that late in the round, you know, first third of the round.

136
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Um, the way it kinda sits into the hill, you've gotta hit a very good, like, mid iron. Um, I just, I think that's a, it's a really,

137
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really good par 3, and I think that, I think all the par 3s are, are, are pretty good as a, as a set, and you're hitting different clubs at each of them, which, which is always good. And then 8, I think 8, like, as a,

138
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as a par 4. Like, 8, that stretch at 8, 9, 10, 11, like, par 4- It's so hard... par 3, par 4, par 3, it's so [chuckles] it's so hard. Um, but it's a re- it's just a good, tough par 4. And so those would be the ones.

139
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What do you think about 7? I, the thing I don't love about 7 is- Is that everything seems to wanna go kind of down to the left and collect down in that one little spot, and then it just...

140
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I, I don't even think hit it, you can even really get it up onto the right without being in the rough.

141
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Um- It to me feels like a hole, like s- Like, one of those holes that gets you from 6 to 8 and the r- and, like, that next set of land.

142
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It's not that I don't like it, but it, you know, sometimes you just play those holes and you're like, "Oh, they're clearly..." It just feels like he's just getting us from the first six holes to the next four.

143
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It's a hole you can definitely fall asleep on, because you think you have so much room to get down to that, like,

144
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bottom area on the left, but depending on where they put that pin, like, if they put that pin back left and everyone's on the left, like, that's a tough... You could see some high scores there. Yeah.

145
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And, and, uh, Jim Sa-Salinetti told me one little trick of that green is

146
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visually from the front to the back it looks like it's an, it's uphill, and everything actually just runs straight away from you down towards the, uh, Mystic Lake, I think is that body of water that's, um...

147
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So he's like, "If you're on the front of there and it looks, you kinda, visually it feels like you're putting uphill, but, but you're definitely not.

148
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And if you kinda turn around and look behind you, everything, like, you're at the bottom of this land that's moving down from the right to the left." So, um, so it's, I mean, it's, it's, it's not my favorite hole.

149
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I think it's just you're getting from one place to another, but it is, it could, it's gonna...

150
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Some guys might lick their chops with a wedge in their hand, you're right, and, and fire at a pin that ends up getting them, um, in some s- into some trouble.

151
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But you can be long on there, like, you're chipping back uphill if you're long. But people, I don't, don't think, I think people think they can't be long.

152
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And, like, in the back left corner of that green, that that's the fastest putt, and it is not. It's, like, one of the slower putts on the golf course.

153
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Well, if they listen to your Salinetti podcast and this one, you know, now they're gonna know. I know. Um, yeah. Go, go, I did a whole flyover with Salinetti. It was awesome.

154
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So we talked through every hole and gave some tips. So, um, if you're gonna listen to someone, it's definitely, it's definitely Jim. [chuckles] Definitely not me. Yeah.

155
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Who, who do you think, like, it's, Jim Salinetti said it's a second g- shot golf course. I, I tend to agree. Like, who does this- I hate that term so much. I [laughs] Okay. Why, why?

156
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It's, it's such a, it's such a cop-out. It's a second shot golf course if you're in the fairway. Like, I mean [laughs] I don't necessarily think that's, that's 100% true.

157
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I think, I think it just speaks to the point of, like, you can, you can be a little bit out of position off the tee, and if you can hit a good second shot.

158
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There's definitely courses that it, like, your second shot is gonna be completely screwed if you don't drive the ball well. I don't think you have to drive the ball super well at Winchester.

159
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I think you just have to be patient. I just don't, I, I don't, I, I think that's sort of derived from the Augusta National effect of, of everything, where everything's fair.

160
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Like, there's still rough at Winchester that might- Yes. And can- You know, you're not gonna be in a good position if you're hitting out of the rough, even just in the rough, to these greens. And so I don't know.

161
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I, I think that... I just don't love the term. Like, I, like, you need to drive the ball well for it to then be a second shot golf course. You need to be in the fairway. You're not gonna be making a lot of birdies,

162
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you know, other than maybe the par fives, uh, from the rough. So, um, yeah, I don't know. You just hit a nick, uh, on my, like, I just don't, I just don't like that.

163
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[laughs] I, I think people, peop- people like to say things are a second shot golf course to indicate, like, golf courses, like, "That's an awesome golf course. It's just a second shot golf course."

164
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And I think Winchester's more than a second shot golf course. Like, the greens are hard, too. So, like, what do you, you d- you don't need to putt? You know, what about your third and fourth shots? Like, [laughs]

165
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I just don't like the phrase.

166
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I mean, he did, he did talk about the putting, too, and, you know, he was like, "You gotta hit good second shots, and you're gonna have to make a bunch of tough, like, five to six footers on these, on these greens."

167
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Yeah. So it's not, it's, it's a- That's gonna be, those are, like, the two things... so it's more than a second shot golf course. I, I, I mean, I- I'm here, I'm here to challenge conventional norms...

168
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look, I've played, I've played a lot. I've played, [laughs] I've played, that's fine. I've played a lot of golf courses this spring in the public sphere [laughs]

169
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that are not second shot golf courses, because if you hit your drive anywhere n- anywhere on the edges, you can't find it.

170
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I think that's kind of the whole point is, like, you're not gonna be in a position off the tee a lot of the times where you're like, "I, I can't see the green. I can't get the ball forward.

171
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I'm getting, I'm, I'm being penalized for, uh, for water out of bounds." Like, there's not a lot of that if you, if, you know, unless you're, like, way off the planet- I, I, by the way, I'm-...

172
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which is the case with most golf courses... I'm being antagonistic right now. I, I know. It's good. This is good conversation.

173
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I just, I don't- Have you ever heard anybody say it's a first shot golf course or a third shot golf course?

174
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I think there's golf courses where there's a premium on driving, like- Yeah, but nobody calls it first shot golf course... good TPC Sawgrass. Yeah, it's the same thing. I mean, it's the same, same thing.

175
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I think it just puts a premium on your irons. Like, that's kinda what it means. Getting good shots into your, into the greens. You gotta know where you're gonna, where you're, where you're going.

176
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I think that's kind of the general, the general term. I get it. And I, I, yeah, whatever.

177
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I think it just, I think it also kinda creates this, the second shot brings in ultimately, like, the third and the fourth shot because those things get affected more than, like, this golf course, you gotta drive it really well because if you don't, you know, you're, you're not gonna score at all because you're not even gonna have second shots.

178
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You're gonna be dropping and you're gonna, you're gonna have a third shot, um, or a fourth shot maybe reteeing. So, I think that's kinda what it means. Who, who does the golf course suit?

179
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Like, what kinda golfer does the... I want a specific name from Massachusetts. [chuckles] No. [laughs] But just in general, who, like who, who... I, 'cause I personally think, I think it's a very kinda mid-am.

180
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This is gonna read a little bit like Framingham. As far as, like, maybe some guys who are, I don't know, like a little bit more patient or can kinda, like, work the ball around.

181
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Maybe it's a, you know, are gonna be a little bit more careful off the tee and know that they have to be in the fairway. Um,

182
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unless people- I mean, listen, I think that- That, for me, I just feel like it might be a mid-am, mid-am tournament. There's, um, there's...

183
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I, I'm sure everyone who's listened this far knows that there's, there's essentially two tournaments that go on at the Mass Am.

184
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There's the 36-hole stroke play qualifying for match play, which then 32 people go on to match play. Um, and so if we talk, take the first tournament, you know, historically speaking, like, you don't have to shoot

185
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three, four under, like, to make match play. It's more like three or four over. And so, um, and then getting in the tournament is, you know, you could be the 32nd seed and, and you're,

186
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you have al- al- almost just as much chance to win the tournament as the first seed. Like, this isn't, um, you know, the NBA playoffs. Yeah. So

187
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I, I don't think length is a huge deal, although I, I do think that with some of the par fives, like, you'll see length come into play where the medium hitters probably can't get to, to...

188
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I, I don't know that the medium hitters can get to any of them depending on the wind. Um, but, like, longer hitters definitely can get there. Um, so length is obviously a huge deal, but it's not the number one deal.

189
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I don't know. I, I think I agree with, like, patience is definitely a good virtue there. Um, I'm not sure short game is, like, the biggest quality that I'd, I'd look in, um, for that, for that place.

190
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Chipping and pitching. Uh- Yeah... that piece of short game. Yeah. Um, you know, the greens are obviously, you know, they're, they have some, certainly have some slope in them, but they're not, like, tiny greens.

191
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And so I, I, I think that people are gonna be hitting a lot of greens, so lag putting is something that I'd be looking at, especially in the s- stroke play portion. Yeah.

192
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Yeah, I think they're roughly, they're gonna have a wrap up around most of the greens aside from those false fronts that you were talking about earlier where the ball can, can move away. And, like, if that's the,

193
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I think that feels less like a short game priority than a, maybe hitting a better, uh, better second shot.

194
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But, like, on, you know, if you're gonna get the ball to the green and you miss right or left or maybe you don't wanna miss long, but the ball's not gonna, like, go bounding away from the green and you're gonna be, um...

195
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But yeah, maybe a little bit like I, I know Concord was, uh, Willett and Downs were in the final. Um, but I just, I feel like there's, there's a lot of good mid-ams.

196
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I think the other thing that- So, I mean, like, there are a lot of g-... makes this golf course a little trickier is there aren't a lot of events at Winchester. I t- I talked to some, I talked to some kids,

197
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um, today, college kids at the, at the Willett Cup at Charles River, and I was, they, they, a lot of them played a practice round yesterday, and they said they had never played the golf course before.

198
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And I think there's al- there's some, there's a collection of older guys who might have played, like, the New England Am was 10 years ago, 12 years ago.

199
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Parziale had an incredible round in the US Am Qualifier a handful of years ago.

200
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So there's, there's that piece too where I think there's a lot of younger college kids who I just don't think have ever really seen this golf course more than maybe once.

201
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In, in this day and age, I th- I'd, I'd be less worried about that because they basically, especially if they're playing in college, they get all this access to information.

202
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They probably all have StrikeAlign apps and, um, you know, they, they just know how to play these golf courses, and they'll be more conservative or aggressive on it. Maybe. Yeah.

203
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I think that's, that's a good- I have no idea. I think, I think it's gonna be a, it's gonna be a good... Oh, right. I mean, how, how will those tell them to play, uh, to play the golf course?

204
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That's, that will be maybe a bit of a storyline versus the collection of really good mid-ams in the field who, you know, there's a lot of good mid-ams. There's former winners who are mid-ams.

205
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There's, like, there's a good, good collection of, of guys who are 25 or older who have a, have a bunch of experience. Um- I'd love to know who the last- But it'll-...

206
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um, tried and true amateur to win this tournament is. And what, what I mean by that is, like, n- no one that even entertained going pro, returning. Like, obviously Downs is gonna be pro at some point.

207
00:36:13.356 --> 00:36:25.136
Um, Dalmac was pro, Par's pro. Um, you know, even, even Willett- I, Willett- Willett might- Spitz, was Spitz a pro? So Spitz won in '06. I don't know who Burgess Houston is. Shout out Burgess.

208
00:36:25.256 --> 00:36:35.302
No, Jess Houston- Like, it's a- He went, he went pro for a little bit. He turned pro. Yeah. He's a Johnson & Wales guy Yeah. Just going through like Bill Drohan, John Hedges, Ryan Riley- Hedges... Mike Kalef.

209
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Hedges Never turned pro. Yeah. Okay. I'd say that was kind of my OP. I don't think so. Unless- Yeah... unless he was much younger. Yeah. Um, John Kelly.

210
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But there's just not a lot of the, not a lot of those that are like tried and true amateurs. Yeah. I mean, I... So Connor Willett would, this time last year, turned pro. He's in the field this year.

211
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I, I think he might have just kind of decided he didn't wanna do it. Like, I would honestly say if he hadn't won in '22, like I'm not really sure he turns pro.

212
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I think that was like a, a rocket booster to his confidence and, and like well-earned win four years ago, like an incredible story. And

213
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I would say like he's probably, like I think you could say he's like a pretty tried and true amateur golfer. He's, he's spent a year as a pro. Um- Oh, so, uh,

214
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I, I hear what you're saying, but he spent a year as a pro, so. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. But he... Yes. I mean, he, he came out of nowhere and, and, um, but yes, you're right. Jones Newmack was already a pro.

215
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Thor Bjornsson, um, yeah- Is he a pro? So it's, it's been a... He's a pro. DeLisio, Organisak. Yeah, it's a lo- it's a long list. Did Pat Froety turn pro? Yeah, I don't know either. I know his, I know his brothers.

216
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Out there right now, but- Yeah, it's a good... But- It's, it's turned into that. I mean, that's kind of how these tournaments are, uh, are going now, um, at this, at this level. Do you know who has won the most Mass Ams?

217
00:38:09.312 --> 00:38:23.492
Um, it can't be Francis Ouimet or you wouldn't be asking me. Um- No, he won six. I don't know. Six seems like a lot. [chuckles] [laughs] I know. I know. Um, a fella named Frederick Wright won- Freddy...

218
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seven from- Fred... from twen- 19- 1920 to 1938. And I just looked him up 'cause I didn't really know anything about him. He, he has a New York Times obit. He died at the country club playing in a US Amateur

219
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qualifier. Died on the golf course at age 60 in- This, this took a turn... nine... In 1958, and it was two years after he lost in a Mass Am final to a 19-year-old. He was 58. He lost to Charles, uh, Volpone.

220
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Um, he tied Bobby Jones for the, uh, eh, like some of this language in a 1950 New York Times article- You gotta save this. We need to do a completely separate podcast on this guy. Like the seven times.

221
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[chuckles] It's incredible. I'm gonna do something on, on, uh, I, I gotta do something 'cause it's... He tied Bobby Jones for the medal in the National Amateur qualifying round, um, that either won the title in 1920.

222
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That's when, uh, I guess Chick, uh, Chick Evans won. Like, just kind of a great golfer in the 1920s, '30s, but I, I think he got a, he got a little obit because he, I mean, he died on a golf course,

223
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which is, which is dark. At the country club, um, as a 60-year-old, two years after making the Mass Am final is, uh, is kinda wild. Um- Wanted, wanted to- Oh, do you...

224
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And the other, the other trivia question I had was courses that have hosted the most. Um- There's two that have hosted 11 times. Well, good guess. Geez, that's, that's a tough one. Uh, Brae Burn? Yes. 11 times.

225
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I, I- The Country Club 11 times. I was, I... Yeah, the Country Club. Yeah. And then Essex and Winchester have eight each. Indian Ridge on that list? It is, uh, I'm scrolling down. I don't see it.

226
00:40:13.152 --> 00:40:22.492
[chuckles] I don't see it. Not sure. They had the US Women's Am today. I know, I know. God help those women that had to play- Boston Country Club, which is good... had to play the, the course.

227
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Uh, some guys who have won stuff this year who are in the fields that I think are worth giving a little shout-out to. Sean Magarrey just won the Worcester County Am. Aidan Emerick has been playing some pretty good golf.

228
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Won the Ornblower, made the semifinals last year. Matt Johnson won the Norfolk County Classic. Um, so those three guys for me are playing well. A bunch of guys qualified.

229
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Made it through the US Open final qualifiers as well. Ca- Mike Kalef, um, Carson Eric, Reese Jensen is a dude I'm kinda watching.

230
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Do you have any players that you are kinda players to watch or tee times or guys if someone wants to go out and w- have, wants to follow a group? Um, anything for you.

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I mean, you, you are far better, you are far better at that than I am. Um, I'm not as connected to the, the youths of, uh, the age. Um, I, I don't know him.

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I know his dad, but Carson Eric obviously like stud, stud player. Um, I think he's first off. Um- First off, yeah... which is, which is pretty cool. Great start.

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Um, you know, I would just go follow some of the mid-ams, you know. Go follow Connor McCormick and his red visor. You know, previous podcast, uh- Former podcast guests... podcast guests. Mixed four-ball champ. You know.

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Hey, listen, you, you declined to mention him as somebody that has won something coming into this year. [chuckles] That's true. That's true. I kept the four-ball guys out of it.

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It's, I don't- I mean, mixed four-ball, come on. Like Connor's on a heater. Florio did just qualify for the US Mid-Am, so maybe there's something to be said for- Uh, Parziale I think has played well on this golf course.

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He's a guy that I, I would go out and, and, and certainly watch. Um, you know, th- th- you can't really...

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If, if you're gonna go wa- like, honestly, if, if you're gonna go watch, I, I think stroke play's probab- like if, if I were to suggest something to you, stroke play's not what to go watch. Like go watch match play.

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Yeah. [chuckles] L- Look. Yeah. 'Cause you can like get locked in on two guys that are playing well. And like, by the way, when I say don't watch, I mean have your fave... Actually, I have a question for you. How do you

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How do you manage who you favorite in a tournament to watch? So like I've got, I've got all the tee times up right now. I've got some people I've got favorited. Like, uh, like do you al- You mean starred? D- starred.

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Starred, favorited. Yeah, starred. Like- Yeah, yeah. Okay. That, that pop up on the top of Golf's Genius, that's what you're asking. That, that pop up on the top of Golf Genius.

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Like, like what's your strategy on who you star? Oh, in this I don't star anybody. Really? Okay. I literally just- Interesting.

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The only time I'll use stars is if it's like a, like the Northeast Am last week, and I star the, the 10 guys who are from New England who are playing, just so I know where they're going. But, like, this is...

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I'd s- I'd have like 50 guys starred if I was starring people on here, 'cause I just keep going through and- Yeah, I guess you're different-... then it just becomes too much...

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'cause you're trying to, you're trying to cover, yeah. So, like I, I always debate whether I wanna star people that I don't like, that I wanna make, like, watch how they're doing.

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But like then, then I give them the gratification that they'll never know that I actually starred them and am paying attention to them, versus just the people that, like if you're playing in a tournament, I'm gonna star you, and like I'm gonna track you or, um, whomever.

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Um, so that's more what I was curious. [laughs] Like, do you hate star people? Yeah. No, I don't hate star either. I do. I definitely do. [laughs] I do. That surprise, that surprises me about you. Okay.

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Well, because I'm still gonna like scroll down to figure out where they are, so I might as well just have them up at the t- We'll put, we'll put that list behind the paywall.

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You can, you can share it with, uh- [laughs] You should see this list. It's long. [laughs] Uh, no one's gonna be listening to this point anyway, so we're good. Yeah.

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I think, I think the Thursday, you're right about the match play. My favorite day, like I went out to Gray Horse last year. I had one day to go out 'cause it's so far away.

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I went on Thursday, like quarterfinal, semifinals are, are exceptional golf because it's the guys who are playing the best

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and they're, they're, you know, the final can be very good but it can also be just like who is the fresher guy who maybe is... Just the week is long- You also have multiple matches-... and it makes it hard.

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Like- Like multiple matches that you can bounce between. Yeah. Um, hang out in one spot and watch, like four groups come through or two groups go through or, or whatever. It gets hard. Like the semifinal gets hard.

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You almost have to make a choice because they start, they can start at awkward times and they're like 30 minutes apart from each other.

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Um, but Thursday, if you can go out Thursday morning and watch the quarterfinal matches, those are typically very good to watch. A lot of good golf.

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This Jake Raddy, Kill Coyne, Parsley Alley group is kind of a great one going out about 12:30. Um- Very good one...

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on Monday, which probably means, which probably means they're teeing off [clears throat] not quite sure when, um, on Tuesday.

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But Tuesday also, like Tuesday afternoon is if you're like, if you live in the area, you could go out Tuesday afternoon and watch the final groups finish, and maybe you get the playoff if things kinda work out that way.

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Or you pick a guy or a group who are all kinda close to the cut line and go watch them play 15, 16, 17, 18. Like those holes go all adjacent to each other.

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You can kinda easily walk them with a group, is like another kind of nice way to do it, um, Monday or Tuesday afternoon. But Tuesday afternoons specifically.

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But if you live in the area and you go out at 5:00, they're playing until dark. Yes. You're gonna see golfers. So you could get an hour, go walk the golf course for an hour. I mean, the last tee time is 2:30 on Monday.

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Probably the same on Tuesday. And weather makes a, a big difference, right? So there was, I mean, in, in the- You played in some rain. Fog, rain. I mean, I was there from

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5:45 in the morning till 7:00 at night playing one round [laughs] on, uh, my first round. So it, it, uh, it can definitely rear its head. Have an impact. Yeah. Hopefully this heat wave's done before then.

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Some other guys I'm just kind of intrigued by are Joey Linnane, who just graduated from NC State, made the semifinals last year. I think he made the quarterfinals at, in 2023. Lost to Ryan Downs both of those years. Um,

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he was just in England playing the Amateur Championship. I think he's- Is he gonna turn pro? I think he's thinking about it.

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I think, I think he's g- one of those guys who might be playing out this summer and is gonna turn pro. Aidan O'Donovan from Somerville who went to URI just graduated. I think he's in the same boat.

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Matt Williams, who you played with at Essex. I did. Yeah. Um, Holy Cross guy who just graduated, I think he's kinda mulling over that same decision.

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So those are some guys, like you might only have this la- this is your kinda last chance to see them compete in this tournament, um, as well. So some kinda recent college grads.

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Like I, I do like Joey Linnane as a, as a guy to like watch this week who could have a, have a very good week.

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He's just ex- He's just very good, and I think his game is kinda rounding into form now that he's off the college wheel and is being able to work on stuff. So he's definitely a dude to watch.

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And John Broderick, like there's just, you could go on for days about- Is he playing?... some of these, like very good dudes in the field. Yeah. Yeah.

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And so the oth- the other thing to mention is the winner does get an exemption into the US Am, which is pretty nice. A big deal. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah, it's like kind of one of those cool... I, I think I've heard from...

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You hear pe- you hear people at, when you're out on the fi- in the final, and someone who might not know the event, they're like, "So what does the winner, like get?" [laughs] You know, like question.

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And it used to just be like, "Oh, they get a trophy and they can come back next year," and, um, some warm and fuzzy feelings.

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Now it's like, no, they get to go and represent the, their state in the US Am as like the State Am champ, which is- Which is very cool... awesome.

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And it's at Merion this year, which is another o- like, you know, the Ma- the US Am any year would be incredible to go play in, but Merion is, um, kind of like a crown jewel,

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uh, venue to get to go and play a, a US Amateur. And I think they get a te- what, 10-year exemption into the tournament? I think they do, yeah. Yeah.

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Kinda if you make the f- if you make the round of 32, if you just make match play, you're through to the next year as well. So

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Yeah, there's, there's a, like that's another thing just up, like if you can just get into these things and not like we talked about qualifying, it just changes the whole dynamic for a lot of these players next year as well.

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Just knowing they don't have to go and sign up for qualifiers in February, um, and hope they get a, you know, good course conditions and in May and April and May and June and, you know, go shoot under par to qualify.

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Because the scoring is, and we talked about this before, but it's insane how, how low the scoring has become to, to qualify for this tournament. Yeah. I mean, even

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in looking at some of the scoring for the New England AM qualifying this week has been insane. Yeah. Yeah. Like even, it's like two or three years ago- I think one under didn't- It, it's just, it's, um, very good golf.

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Very good golf to play. Yeah. Yeah.

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And then before we wrap, just the, my kind of last note that I had, I know it's still early, but, uh, like the, you know, player of the year race kind of starts to ramp up because this is very much the window of time for guys to grab points between the Mass AM, the New England AM,

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uh, the Willamette, especially for college kids. So Alan Rose is the Mass golf, uh, you know, leader right now. Matt Costello, Max Ferrari, Aidan O'Donovan, and Reese Jensen are the, are the top five.

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So there's also like USGA stuff and ways, other ways to earn points that some of those guys have done. And Rose was low AM in the, in the Mass Open.

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Um, so just another kind of like thing to start tracking now as guys actually really start to accrue points and, and win stuff, especially this week and next week. It's gonna be fun. Yeah. It's gonna be great.

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Anything else, Berkey? Um, no. I mean, I, I think I'm good. It's, it's a, uh, it's one of the great all-time non-video, like track from work events that you have of the year- Yeah... if you're working. So it's- Yeah...

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you know, star the people you like, star the people you don't like, and, uh, follow along. Nah, I like them all right, like right there. It's always right there.

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Just the, the love and the hate in one- On the- In one little box... on the opposite of you, I've got like 20 people starred that I'm just, I'm following, you know? [chuckles] Yeah. Most of them are people I like.

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That's exciting. Most of them are people I like. Yeah. Maybe. Well, um, well, I'm, I'm, I got a bunch of stuff coming out and a bunch of stuff already out, so, uh, people can follow.

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Subscribe to this and, um, follow me wherever, uh, you want to. Instagram and, um, basic.bi.com. You're the best. It's a bunch of stuff. The best in the business.

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I'm looking forward to, looking forward to writing some stuff and making some more stuff. I've got so much Jim Salinetti content that I still have to unleash on the world, uh, from my... He gave me like 90 minutes.

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It's the best. So got a bunch of cool stuff. The first hole, like the first green, do you know the story about the first green? No. They had to move it. Oh, it's so good. I think I, I think I- I know you had to tell it.

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Well, don't tell me. I wanna listen to him. Yeah. I'll, I'll let, I'll let Jim tell the story on Instagram. Um, all right. That's it for me, Berkey. All right. This was fun. Yeah.

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Hey, listen, it's our first, uh, I think it's our first amateur Massachusetts- That's for sure... podcast. Yeah. Yeah. So- Um, I don't think we did a Walker Cup podcast, so. Nope. No. Yeah.

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And we'll be back for the Open Championship in like the blink of an eye. We will. We will. And we might even, hey, maybe we'll do a pop-up on the final eight and give our picks. I would love to. That would be great.

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That'd be fun. [chuckles] And it'd get people really mad at us. All right. [laughs] Or, or me 'cause, 'cause I'll say something I shouldn't. All right, Mills. That was good. All right. Thanks, Berkey. All right. Later.

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See ya.

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